But I ask 3dhubs and the hubs to continue the discussion in the open here as well, as will I.
Everyone here deserves to have their voices heard on this, as they are directly affected because the change is still up. Perhaps some others from 3dhubs can help with the discussion here.
I would encourage you to do the call sooner. A week is a long time in internet time. Google has this already. I would think you would want to head off some bad headlines that inevitably are coming on the 3dprint news sites and forums.
You don’t want to see headlines like “3dhubs redefines 3d printing as low quality prototypes” or “3dhubs decides their primary business is now low-tolerance prototype materials.” Or worse headlines, which I am NOT going to post here.
yes rejecting an order due to recommending a different service will reduce your page rank. I went from page one in my area to page 2 just for sending someone to a sla hub as fdm was not a good choice for them. and now I am on page 2. now also understand I am the only hub in my town and hubs 100 mi away are being shown over mine that is right in town. the ranking system is flawed.
Why would you take a perfectly good SLA print and recommend it to an SLA printer ? That is not the goal here. The goal here is to take perfectly good FDM prints and recommend them to SLA printers!!!
sorry I forgot lol. the thing I am most angry about is the fact that I got bumped from the first page in my area for doing the right thing. also I am the only print hub for about 20 miles and others from over 100 mi are being presented ahead of ours. now I have 2 dormant printers. how can you decline an order with out being punished for doing the right thing.
like I said I have 2 idle printer not making cash. I don’t turn down sales unless the customer and I agree a different printer is needed to get the results they require.
Why use a term like disgusting? Because if they just spent a little development time on the right stuff, and asked their base for help, we could tell them how to do better with their goals. Instead, they secretly institute a policy of taking our customers from us, AT THE SAME TIME they implement a returning customer ranking change.
That is not correct. We changed how we weight the reasons for rejecting an order, that caused the drop. The graph is a representation of how your accept rate based on these weights. We should definitely clarify that in the description.
Good. Thanks. I was worried hubs were doing things they shouldn’t. This is a pretty big issue. I have been on the phone and via email with several hubs the last few days. They are quite upset. The drop in accepts (at least how I read it) worried me that people were protesting.
Some have suggested this, and I think discussion is best.
Day 7. On day 6, no response from 3dhubs at all in this thread on this abomination. They do not understand the depth and breadth of what they have done, and how it affects our marketplace, not just on 3dhubs, but with all or our customers. They are vastly underestimating the anger out here.
They continue attempt to redefine FDM printing as low quality prototyping. They continue to have contempt for those hubs who have spoken up here, by ignoring responses and answering questions incompletely or with pure misdirection.
I encourage all hubs who are aware of this, (which is not very many, because most hubs don’t read talk or have tried to create an order…) to PLEASE continue to discuss this here. It is important that 3dhubs is aware of the issue. Also, they are probably praying for this hub to slip past the front page or TALK.
EDITED: I had posted that it appeared that declines were on the rise, based on data that 3dhubs shares with us. I was worried folks were dropping orders in protest, but they said that this was not the case, and it appears with my own tests that this is true, so I removed the post. (people were asking why I deleted the post)
B. 3dhubs posts on TALK a request for help in defining guidelines for “customer expectations” for FDM. They ignore hubs that say that is a bad idea. This was actually step 1 in their SECRET plan to denigrate FDM.
C. 3dhubs adds a dialogue when customers put up a model, with a dialogue that says “can we help you choose a material?” which pushes customers to SLS or SLA. Including our customers, our repeat customers, and customers that come from our own websites.
D. 3dhubs adds a “Disclaimer” for those who choose FDM, stating that the prints are not smooth, within tolerances, etc. They are then guided to SLS or SLA. Again, this includes our customers, our repeat customers, and customers that come from our own website.
E. 3dhubs changes the description of FDM to “Protoyping”. All the descriptions for other methods are given better wording, FDM is given negative wording.
F. 3dhubs changes the materials descriptions the customer chooses from “General Purpose Plastics” to Prototyping Plastics.
G. 3dhubs adds a dialogue that appears just before the customer completes the order with a “Disclaimer” that warns the customer that FDM is not the best way to go, and includes links that lets the customer choose SLS or SLA. This outright steals the customer from the FDM hub, and moves the customer to an SLS or SLA hub. This is true for our customers, our repeat customers, customers that we brought to 3dhubs on our own, and customers that arrive via our own websites or Facebook pages.
H. This was done in secret, with no input from the FDM hubs, no warning, and no notice on the changelog. 3dhubs says this is just a test, but we believe it is already a permanent change.
I. After 6 days of input, on day 6 3dhubs fails to respond to any messages, including those who have stated that their orders have declined. Active hubs have shown a direct loss of orders, but 3dhubs ignored the them.
Totally agree with this post. 3DHUBS is now branding FDM as non desirable. Not sure what kinds of profits they’ll see from this, but i guess they’re out to rid themselves of the “little guys.” And orders are now nill since this happened.
ANOTHER HUB who has lost business as a result of being called a “Protoype Hub with low tolerances and prototype quality materials?” shocking! That’s about 8 or something for the number of hubs who have checked in with lower orders. And since TALK is read by a very few of us, it would seem that we are hearing from very few of the entire represented data here. Many hubs are probably losing customers without being aware of it.
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Why would your orders go down? Well, lets look at your hub, which I will rank on a scale of 1-5.
Quality of prints: 10. Your photos of your prints are excellent. In fact, some of your prints are better than I have seen from some HQ hubs.
Tolerances 10. Can measure that, but your stepper motor holder sure looks like it fits PERFECTLY.
Hub Quality 10. Great presentation, description, etc.
Reviews 10. Appears to be a perfect score. Reviews like “Very knowledgeable with CAD, 3D printing techniques/strategy. Provided recommendations to improve quality, even fixed a problem with STL file” “If I could give 6 stars …” Great communication and customer service " “Pierre made special adjustments to his equipment in order to print my parts with the best quality.”
I also see you print 2 ft x 3ft with your FDM printer. AND you deliver, do cad design.
------------- I can see no reason why your orders would have dropped of -------------------
Or perhaps the customers came to your site and found that you do prototyping materials, and went to a different hub.
Or perhaps the customers came to you and was shown a “can i help you choose a material” which aims your customer at a different hub, and thus went to a different hub.
Or perhaps it was the “Disclaimer” that warns the customer that FDM is not a good print quality.
Or perhaps the customers got the point of placing the order, and was told they should “consider a different material” which directs them to SLA and SLA and went to a different hub.
Or perhaps the customer saw that 3dhubs does low quality prototypes in prototyping material, and went completely to a different 3d printing site all together.
Or perhaps the customer saw that 3dhubs does low quality prototypes, and went to an FDM printer farm.
I see that 3dhubs on FRIDAY was so interested in this issue that they failed to respond in any meaningful way to our issues here. As I said from the first day, this is now policy. They are ignoring us. This does not bode well for the future of 3dhubs as a reliable company with which to list our printers.
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Here is what happened. In lieu of responses from 3dhubs, I will speak for them. I will speak for them every day that they do not participate.
A. Last year, 3dhubs received $7 million US in series B funding. This was presented as an investment that would allow funding for 3dhubs to pay for a greater focus on professional type printers. https://www.startupdelta.org/news/3D-Hubs-secures-7M-series-B-round-to-f…
B. 3dhubs posts on TALK a request for help in defining guidelines for “customer expectations” for FDM. They ignore hubs that say that is a bad idea. This was actually step 1 in their SECRET plan to denigrate FDM.
C. 3dhubs adds a dialogue when customers put up a model, with a dialogue that says “can we help you choose a material?” which pushes customers to SLS or SLA. Including our customers, our repeat customers, and customers that come from our own websites.
D. 3dhubs adds a “Disclaimer” for those who choose FDM, stating that the prints are not smooth, within tolerances, etc. They are then guided to SLS or SLA. Again, this includes our customers, our repeat customers, and customers that come from our own website.
E. 3dhubs changes the description of FDM to “Protoyping”. All the descriptions for other methods are given better wording, FDM is given negative wording.
F. 3dhubs changes the materials descriptions the customer chooses from “General Purpose Plastics” to Prototyping Plastics.
G. 3dhubs adds a dialogue that appears just before the customer completes the order with a “Disclaimer” that warns the customer that FDM is not the best way to go, and includes links that lets the customer choose SLS or SLA. This outright steals the customer from the FDM hub, and moves the customer to an SLS or SLA hub. This is true for our customers, our repeat customers, customers that we brought to 3dhubs on our own, and customers that arrive via our own websites or Facebook pages.
H. This was done in secret, with no input from the FDM hubs, no warning, and no notice on the changelog. 3dhubs says this is just a test, but we believe it is already a permanent change.
I. After 7 days of input, on day 6 AND ON DAY 7 3dhubs fails to respond to any messages, including those who have stated that their orders have declined. Active hubs have shown a direct loss of orders, but 3dhubs ignored the them.
Be very clear here. AFTER a customer, including YOUR CUSTOMERS, choose your hub, 3dhubs tries to move them to a different hub!
Day 7. No response on day 6 or day 7.
Well that was the quietest 3D Hubs weekend ever!!! Just one enquiry from an existing customer and 3 printers getting cold.
I used to look forward to the weekend orders but looks like someone else is getting them now. This has to be the “prototyping” thing and negativity in the description. 3D Hubs have really screwed us FDM hubs.
@Filemon Could you also let me know why when a customer is searching for hubs from Leicester they get hubs from other parts of the UK and even one from Belgium?
Position 4 is a hub from London which is 140km away
Position 9 is a hub from BELGIUM which is another country 370km away!!!
Also I just noticed my listing says I respond in 13m on average but my dashboard says that both my accept/decline time and order comment times are 2m. Is it me or is this full of errors?
I’m starting to lose confidence that 3D Hubs will be great again.
This is ridiculous on so many levels. Not sure how 3dhubs could have screwed this up worse.
I find it hard to believe that so many of those customers went on to print at SLA or SLP printers. I think it is likely they were simply scared off 3dhubs by the new wording, and either decided not to part with their money for what was perceived as low quality, or that they looked around and found some non-3dhub site with a better description of FDM to place the orders.
@Filemon@Perry_1 Whilst we are going though all the anti FDM processes on here I thought I’d go through the material selector wizard to show how difficult it is to get an FDM result. I will post a tree displaying the results when I get chance but in the meantime check out the attachment. For my first try I thought I would try one that MUST be FDM…
I selected "Function, then “Form and fit”, then for accuracy chose “LOW” (this must be rough arsed FDM right?)… then the result still gives one last ditch effort to take you to SLS!!! WOW, just WOW!
Yes, I have been saying this for a week. This is my repeat customer getting that dialogue “can I help you choose a material”.
Then everything there has the solid intent of harvesting my customer…
Its not JUST that the subjective terminology is bad, its that it was shown automatically to a customer I earned. Repeat customer, customer from facebook, customer from my business card, customer from my ads…
The statement that customers only choose FDM because of price is my favorite.
Plus, the material selector is so subjective. Just what does form and fit mean, anyway? Where are the advantages of FDM listed?
The whole massive thing was done with the sole intent of moving customers from FDM to higher $.
They will say they are focusing on a more “professional” market now. That’s what Makerbot said just before they lost their market.
But focusing on professional customers translates to “lets take FDM customers and try to convince them to spend more money.” That is not focusing on professional customers. That’s harvesting already happy FDM customers.
Instead of going for the positive, they reversed it. They went negative.
I am not sure I can find a case where a company cannibalized their vendors and their end customers so harshly.
“a competing website full of FDM printers”
Yes, this is what I fear most, a split in the marketplace as a result of "opening the door to competition."
This is classic “voice of the customer” training for anyone in marketing. Keep your base happy. Show EXTREME loyalty. Do not show any disloyalty. That’s how competitors get a foothold.
Particularly with 3dhubs business model, which is to match a growing “COMMODITY”(vendors) with a growing customer base (end users). 3dhubs will likely not want a full press split in the market, and I absolutely don’t want that either.
How they did not work to protect existing hubs and customers on this was just amazing. That would have been step one. Marketing 101. Whatever you do, improve your base first.
Yes, well, we know which hubs these changes are meant to benefit, don’t we? Its such an amateurish mistake companies make during growth phases, when they hit the death valley of the cost of customers vrs. the revenues of each customer.
This is like makerbot, back when they owned the market, saying they were focusing their market on more educational and industrial markets, because there was untapped money there. They then tried to show how bad their old printers were, in all their marketing, and tried to show how well their new printers were better. They also cut off all their support for their old printers, in the hopes the customers would move to better printers. They even deleted their old forum postings.
They tried to redefine the market.
They are now 1/3 of the company they were (at least as a division), and Flashforge stepped right in and stole their market, with A COPY of Makerbot’s old printer. I can give 20 other examples just off the top of my head, where companies who owned the market began to belittle (or complicate the messaging of) the actual market they were in charge of, to upsell their customers, and lost a TON of money, created competitors, or simply vanished. Makerbot was supposed to be the next Apple…
This is so scary to me. The lack of loyalty. I do not really want to see a 3dhubs competitor chip away at their market. But as my wife said- if she went to a competitor, (such as the printer farms that are popping up here in the states) and they described FDM as quick, inexpensive, and HIGH QUALITY, she would order from them over 3dhubs that defines the prints as low quality prototypes printed with prototyping materials.
It is all so sad to watch. This is just step 1 of “How to walk off a cliff.”
For me personally it is just disappointment. I’ve enjoyed telling people I am part of 3D Hubs and explaining how it works. Now I just feel FDM was a stepping stone for them and not looking after the people why got them there.
FDM is not a stepping stone for them, if they just fix some things in the correct way. The materials, qualities, etc., can all live together well. But they have just not been smart about how to go about it. They should listen to us.
I’m happy to schedule a separate call later this week. That would allow to dive in on your own Hub as well, as I’ve noticed that some comments are more directed towards that. I’ll just go ahead and schedule something. Lmk if that works for you.
Hi Simon, I’m available at 3h Amsterdam time today but only for 20min. Alternatively I’ve send you an invite for another option. Let me know what you prefer. Cheers
My apologies. I found out about this just now. Didn’t have email notifications on anymore after my inbox literally had 50+ emails related to it. Will there be any way to receive a summary of the topics discussed? As well was there any other date possible for the discussion? Thanks again, -Parker Drouillard
Thanks for the summary Perry.
if I’m honest, the only wording I’m actually upset about is the misleading statement that 'FDM Hubs can only guarantee XXX Tolerances" When in reality, this is not FDM printers that are guaranteeing those standards, it’s 3D Hubs. IMO the wording should be “3D Hubs can only guarantee XXX Tolerances, as these are the general guidelines enforced by us on hubs. If additional tolerances are needed it is advised that you contact a hub/professional for more information on the subject”
Just something more constructive to be said in case customers are in fact looking for higher tolerances or even better surface finishes.
I just posted a summary, and my expectations of possible outcomes at the top of the thread…
Can you get any of those folks who emailed you to come on here?
I have a ton of emails on this issue. I am having difficulty getting those folks to come on here, for various reasons I would rather not say at this time…
@filemon is willing to discuss further. However, so little time was allotted and he is very busy. I encourage you to push for a direct discussion with him, but really feel the real way to get results is still going to be open daylight discussions about the issues and motivations here.
Also, if you reply to the thread directly under the featured thread, your messages will rise above the old ones…
? That is not the goal here. The goal here is to take perfectly good FDM prints and recommend them to SLA printers!!!
