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Feb 2016

My 7th grade life science classroom is part of a study with a local university on the outcomes of 3D printing on students and their 21st century skills. We have gotten a Maker Bot 5th generation printer and it has worked beautifully from October till this week. Now I am getting, for lack of a better term, plastic spaghetti or “hair” on student prints (see pictures below). Parts will print normally and others not. Sometimes rafts are on when this happens some times they are off, there does not seem to be a pattern, or at least I haven’t found one yet. The students are designing with Tinkercad and Tinkercad support people have said to use D to drop every single shape on the plate (which I do personally) and Maker Bot support has said to lower the temperature and make sure rafts are on, which I have done. Even when I put the rafts on, when I hit print, the rafts go off and the resolution mm go to 0 which I know are wrong. I would have just changed it BEFORE I hit print but it doesn’t ALWAYS stick.

I know we are new to this but Tinkercad suggested this forum to see if anyone else had any ideas or had encountered this issue. You all come very highly recommended!

Thank you in advance for any help you can provide for my students.

Dr Sue Cottingham

7th Grade Life Science Teacher

I would suggest resetting to default setting in your makerbot software in the print settings menu. Then run the initial setup utility on your makerbot itself, follow the steps through the bed leveling ect… Perhaps this will correct the issues. Also there are lay flat and place on bed functions in the makerbot software that should be able to auto rotate and optimally orient your objects to reduce any floating. Hope this helps!

Hi Dr. Cottingham,

What is the temperature your extruder is set to? One thing you can try is first unload the filament you have in your extruder. Then pre-heat the extruder at a temperature a bit higher than the normal print temp of the filament you are extruding (for example if you print with ABS at 230c try preheating at 235-240c). Then try reloading your filament to see if you get a steady flow of filament. Then try doing a couple of test prints to see if that makes a difference.

If that doesn´t work you may have a blockage in your extruder, at which point you would need to clean your hot-end by submerging it in acetone for about 15 -20 minutes, and looking for/clearing any physical blockages in the extruder, which may require you to detatch/re-attach the extruder from your printer.

I hope you get a better flow with one of those two suggestions, if I can think of anything else I will post it here. Take care and best wishes!

Ty

Potential problems:

1. Your first layer isn’t sticking right. your initial Z axis probe isn’t registering correctly. The result will be almost 100% what you see above. My solution now is to grab that lead screw on the back, and manually force it to skip steps - manually adjusting the bed height about 0.05mm up or down. I know what a good layer line looks like. Shouldn’t dig into bed. Shouldn’t be “round” Should be elliptical, with a flattened top. Should overlap with layer line printed next to it. Just grab the screw in the back, and turn it. It will resist you turning it, but eventually you will hear a click, and make it skip steps.

2. You turned off filament jam detection. And you are getting a filament jam - but only for like 2 or 3 layers. Then it starts making the result above. You would get a half finished print, followed by a birds nest. Try and look for it doing this. Turn on filament jam detection and try swapping to a new or different smart extruder. (you do have at least 3 smart extruders, right? You need at least 3. NEED. That is need in all caps, period at the end of the sentence. 2 is 1 and 1 is none.)

3. Something got changed. See first post. Reset everything. Level bed. Cant go wrong with that. Good first step.

4. you filament is wet. Water absorbs into a lot of plastics. It turns to steam in the hot end, and makes lots of little stringies. Result is little hairs on the finished print, but you do get a fully finished print. I don’t think this is what is happening here to you. Solution is to dry the PLA at 60 Celcuis for a bit and then store it in a dry box (see photography dry box), with desiccant, on a spool holder you will make out of a PVC pipe, and then drill a 4mm hole in the dry box and run a PTFE Bowden tube from the dry box, to makerbot.

I have found that if I can force the rafts to be on and the resolution to be at least 0.4 with supports on I can get some things that are recognizable. For instance see the pictures below. This is what I printed this morning for a student. I have included a picture of what was designed as well as how it turned out. As you can see. Part of it turned out…OK… part of it is not even close.

The extruder is set to 215c normally Makerbot told me to take it down to 210c so I have done that but it hasn’t seemed to help. When I load and unload I let the color go the whole way through and it produces an even flow so it seems to flow ok. Makerbot had me check all kinds of things. Some things on a plate print fine and some don’t - see the pics I just put up of the crocodile and the bird for mutualism. It is crazy.

I have found that if I delete the program off the computer and reinstall I can get one print every day (the school won’t let downloading for fear of viruses on their networks) so I have to take it home every day to do this. I do this with my laptop, my husband’s laptop, and the laptop for the printer. I try to get 3 prints per day. If one messes up, I am out of luck for that printer every day. Yes I am still in touch with Makerbot every chance I get. Level the plate after every print to make sure it is correct. I can’t find any functions other than the D in Tinkercad that lay things flat on the plate to reduce floating. I think that is me being new and EVERYONE has been so helpful! The students and I are learning TONS!

Thank you so much.

I have found that if I delete the program off the computer and reinstall I can get one print every day (the school won’t let downloading for fear of viruses on their networks) so I have to take it home every day to do this. I do this with my laptop, my husband’s laptop, and the laptop for the printer. I try to get 3 prints per day. If one messes up, I am out of luck for that printer every day. Yes I am still in touch with Makerbot every chance I get. Level the plate after every print to make sure it is correct. I can’t find any functions other than the D in Tinkercad that lay things flat on the plate to reduce floating. I think that is me being new and EVERYONE has been so helpful! The students and I are learning TONS!

Thank you so much.

On the replicator 2 this kind of issue come from the engine wire, make some resherch on GOOGLE with “REPLICATOR WIRE ISSUE” maybe is the same one !

Sometimes part tip over. Sometimes there’s bad adhesion. Sometimes I’ve even notices that makerware even goofs up and doesn’t get it right. I’d suggest to make sure the build plate is level by printing a one layer leveling file and inspect the bottom of the file to look for even pressure of the filament. For me and my 2X I always wipe the kapton build plate with iso alcohol every build for a clean surface.

I don’t think the re-installing the makerbot desktop is actually doing anything. I think you might be tricking yourself into thinking it is helping.

2 ideas here. I had a weird issue once where my screen stopped working. It was all white. I eventually found that if I left the makerbot unplugged for about 3 days, it would get better / go away. I think it was some sort of charge unbalance building up in the control board. But I honestly have no clue. Try unplugging you machine over a 3-4 day weekend (and maybe unplug it at the end of the day every day) and see if that helps.

#2, Also - print SLOWER, print hotter. Adjust your print speed to half what it is now. Under the custom menu - Adjust your temperature up to 216. Adjust all of the extrusion speeds down below 30mm /sec. First layer speed down to 10mm/sec. first layer of raft speed down to 10mm/sec. I think the gears that push the filament are having trouble keeping up with how fast the makerbot is trying to print. There might be something wrong with the smart extruder. I am trying to work you around the problem.

if the above doesn’t completely fix things, try adjusting the filament diameter down 0.1mm to 0.3mm.

Finally, add more shells under “model properties”. Try 3-4.

HOLD ON!

Let’s get the basics out of the way first before we make this instructor go way too far into places she doesn’t have a need to. She has to teach her students first, not research the hacks and tricks of the machine. And we don’t want her to screw any warranty protections she may have on the machine. Contact me through the hub and we’ll work this out together. Allow some time (not your lunch-break:)

Do not use modeling software to trick your 3d printers into behaving. There are tricks however, but that’s not going to help you in this case.

Cheers!

I wonder if this just comes down to the raft model spacing… Try bumping that down a bit. Too much and you might get a part that wont come off the raft, but if you get 100% good prints, its a step in the right direction. You might need to bump down the raft model spacing option for smaller prints. Been thinking about it all day, things I have experienced. Makerbot 5th gen is officially on my not recommended list in terms of reliability.

I use the painters tape that came with the printer - I clean it every 3-4 prints with alcohol but not every time. I will start doing that. That is an easy thing to do. Since this problem has started and Makerbot had me level the plate again, I have been leveling it before every print. The thing is sometimes it doesn’t print the bottom layer for it to adhere to and I think that is my major issue.

I only have the makerbot PLA filament from the makerbot site so that is a plus. When it does print it prints beautifully and it appears to be random when it decides to print and when it doesn’t. Some files will turn out just fine and others not.

I have tried to heat the extruder without the filament and it keeps telling me to load the filament. I am doing something wrong there. Test prints from the machine always come out right. I will keep trying.

Thank you for your help

Hi Sue! I have been wondering what software are you actually using to print? Tinkercad or the makerbot slicer?

Are you always printing with 0.4 mm layer height at least?

The max layer height recomended for a 0.4 nozzle is 0.36 mm. If the leyer height is higher the layers won’t stick well to each other.

The problem will be worse and much notable in models with smaller surface (as shown in the pict.).

Reduce the layer height to 0.15 mm (even if the prints take too much longer). If it solve the problem, increase gradually your layer height.

Don’t just math it out. Its not that simple. Things will work - there are other issues going on here. the smart extruder is far from perfect. there are a wide range of values that will work. 0,04 is not statistically significant!

The printer was purchased in october 2015 and delivered in November. Makerbot is is looking at replacing the extruder and has asked for my logs and since the new 1.9 download they have found a few errors in the log. Now I don’t know what that means, but probably not good.

I have no idea where the screw is. The new update wiped out every setting. They are all on zero so you are probably correct there. I found a button that says restore defaults. Would that turn it all on? I only have 1extruder now but know I need more. The school doesn’t provide this I have to so I am saving for that because I need 3. I keep the filament in the bags with the silacon beeds to keep them dry when not in use. They are kept in a drawer of the science counter. That is all i have right now.

Don’t worry about the error. It’s best to have one if you think about it. Since you uploaded the newly released 1.9, try uploading the version before this last one. Plus, uninstall MB desk top and download it again. We want to start fresh. Regardless if they replace the extruder, i would recommend getting the new Smart Extruder + before Feb 29. It’s been extensively tested and the promo of $99 end. After Feb., it’s $199.00. But Don’t regard this response as a pitch. I’ve got two i use for demo’s and I’m very satisfied.

There is a switch. It is there to stop the print when you run out of filament. On a home made 3d printer, when you run out, it just keeps going. You get a half done print. Makerbot added both a switch, and an encoder wheel (the wheel spins, it expects 5mm of filament to move, the wheel can measure 5mm, if 3mm or 8mm moves, it trips an error and stops the print “filament jam detection”). That is the “smart” part of the smart extruder. People keep posting on here - even though they CLEARLY don’t own a makerbot 5th gen. The 5th gen is a completely different type of beast. Its not a replicator 2. Its not a reprap. Its a 5th gen. And there is a reason there is one nailed to the wall of almost every makerspace out there. I got 2 years with mine - and I have learned to love to hate it. You have to treat the 5th gen differently.

I am willing to bet she has the old smart extruder. I still have the old one. I get the feeling makerbot keeps the 3d printers in a warehouse, and hers is probably a year and a half old as of today. I agree with the get the new extruder idea. The PTFE tube the stuck inside the thing is something they should have done out of the gate. I still hate their extruder design in general though. Even the new one is still a terrible design. But its a huge step in the right direction.

Never mind the filament jam detection. If you didn’t mess with it, its on by default. Call makerbot and ask nicely. You might be able to get a second smart extruder for free. Good job on keeping the filament dry. Fresh filament is the best kind. You can dry it a 60C in an oven of some sort. Also be sure to keep it clean when its on the machine. Dust gets all over filament.

the makerbot slicer has always worked around issues great for me. Sometimes there is an actual large defect, but 99.5% of the time the makerbot slicer just makes it work.

Print only 1 thing at a time. The bird, once it has started, cant be stopped. And if it messes up, that little bird will kill your lock ness monster. As much as is possible, print only 1 thing.

I probably do have the old extruder. I am not sure if they look any different. But if the update was for the new extruder which is what I am hearing and now it doesn’t work. That would make sense.

I am in constant contact with tech support. They keep askng for all kinds of things logs, serial numbers of the printer and extruder, types of computers I am using when it makes the errors (dell, HP, and Toshiba ) laptop or desktop, operating system (windows 10). Hopefully there is a common denomination that will cue what is wrong. They were going to send a new extruder then started asking all of these questions and said they had to check all of this first.

Please know I absolutely love this printer. It is the best ever! It was so easy to use and the students have learned so much! They are eager to come to science. The other 2 teams of students are jeleous and want to use it but I can’t bring their teachers into this century. This product has made a huge difference in the lives of my students. They are Title 1 students who usually feel like they cannot go anywhere and they will be in dead end jobs the their lives. This has them talking about computer design and engineering for a living and we have only done 3 products. The difference of this one printer is staggering for them. This is why it HAS to work. I can’t let this interest go. The 8th grade teachers are learning to use it now to prepare for this group coming up and the high school is ordering maker bots now too. We have made a commitment starting with this group.

We are using tinkercad right now. I will do as you suggested and check them with the other programs to make sure nothing is wrong with the tinkercad files

2 words. Printrbot Play. It will cost you as much as those smart extruders more or less, and unlike the play, it JUST WORKS. and when it doesn’t, there is some legitimate thing you can do to make it work. Good job on bringing the title one folks up. Kids in my school got it rough. The 5th gen is a heap. A HEAP compared to the printrbot play. Its loud. Terrible extruder. Slow. You cant fix it. Makerbot cant fix it. That’s why people NAIL IT TO THE WALL. I have to wrangle my makerbot. Figuratively speaking, I have to grab it by the horns, and throw it on the ground, tie up its legs, just to get it to perform reliably. On the printrbot play - add the heated bed (which is larger) and now it can do ABS. Modify it like mine and it will do Nylon. There are a few more things you will have to learn over the makerbot, but you can write it down step by step on 4 sheets of paper. If you can return the makerbot, and buy x5 printrbot play, your life will be better.

This is how I set my first layer height. I call it manual Z axis calibration. Add this tool to your bag of tricks. No warrantees voided. But now your first layer will stick. You will have to learn what a good first layer looks like, but once you know what too high and too low looks like, you can fix it with a click… click…