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Aug 2016
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Aug 2016
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Matterthings
Aug '16

.

Hello Brian and everyone else.

We are proud and thankful to be 3D Hubs members for many years now.

3D Hubs has contributed immensely to increase the popularity of 3d printing but with success certain responsibilities are acquired: we want to ask 3D Hubs to set minimum prices per cm3.

We are NOT proposing FIXED prices but a BASE PRICE that no one can go lower.

It is healthy competition between hubs that a client can upload a model and compare the prices offered by all of us but some hubs seem to be hobbyists that are happy to charge just enough to buy their next spool and by doing so, they harm all of us with their excessive low prices. That is just unethical and unfair competition and will tarnish 3D Hubs reputation in the long run. You know how hard it is to build a business and how fast and easy it can be lost.

Customers ask us why we are “so expensive” when the other hub charges only $2. ( yes, TWO dollars !?!! ) To charge that unrealistic price we would need to reduce the quality of our prints. If this situation persists, soon the clients will find in 3d Hubs only mediocre print jobs.

We have worked very hard for almost three years to get 75 reviews and we constantly monitor other hubs to have our prices at the same range. We used to get one order per week and while we still get inquiries, since the cheap hubs appeared we get a job only once a month. When we ask the client why he did not assign his print to us they say they found another hub with a better price.

That is precisely why there are minimum prices set across all industries. As a customer you know an approximate cost of eggs at any supermarket or the average cost of services like a Laundromat. Prices do vary but they stay within a range, that creates fair competition and to gain customers you would add a discount on support removal, free shipping, same day manufacture, etc. In our opinion this is how things should work and it would be on the benefit of the customers, your hub and 3D Hubs.

Take for example a Hub that is charging $6 for a model that costs between $20 and $40 in all other hubs. He does not realize that the day his printer goes kaputt he will have not made any money to buy another one and will be out of business. In the meantime we are all forced to try to match his offer. It is great to see young entrepreneurs succeed but this is simply unfair competition. If he would charge the correct price he would also be making a lot more money for the same effort and 3D hubs a bigger commission.

We work very hard to make a living of this business, other hubs just want to earn extra money and some do it just for fun. Regardless, a client should pay a fair price for the work that it takes to deliver a 3d print.

Politely we want to ask 3d Hubs to set a minimum price per cm3 that no one can go below.

Thank you.

Claudia and José

Matterthings.

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2https://www.3dhubs.com/talk/uploads/db5060/original/3X/b/8/b833815e56d3d2d52a17c55a68...

There are 51 replies with an estimated read time of 18 minutes.

MindFuLL
Aug '16

If this is what you do for a living then a “hobbyist” shouldn’t affect you even if they are doing prints for free.

My response to a previous post on this issue:
“It’s up to you to get paid for what your time is worth, not the market place. That’s what my prices are based on more so than what others are charging. If someone doesn’t want to spend that much then I refer them elsewhere and they probably don’t need my skills or attention to detail. My time costs what it costs. Obviously you have to create value by building a reputation first and attract customers that match your capabilities but after that you need to decide what you are worth and stick to it or you will make yourself miserable, and that would be your fault not 3dhubs. I hope it stays this way.
Some of us focus on volume, some of us on quality or difficult prints, and some of us are into specialty kinds of prints. On top of all that this industry changes every day. Adaptability and variety is crucial to this platform’s survival and attempting to artificially fix prices would be detrimental to it’s growth and credibility.”

I’m not the cheapest in my city by a long shot. I actually think it’s a positive for me if a customer has tried a cheaper hub before placing an order with me(most have) so they have something to compare me to. If someone is cheaper than you but you have better quality then maybe you need to put more effort into making that distinction. If someone is cheaper than you and just as good then… are you familiar with capitalism and the free market? Competition is critical for progress. It’s a pretty well established concept in North America and there is a reason why price fixing is illegal. If 3dhubs took your advice they would be giving an opening for another platform to undercut them entirely.

-Jesse

Matterthings
Aug '16

Hello Jesse.

We agree on what you say about healthy competition but we still believe that not “price fixing” but a base price that covers at least the cost of the filament machine depreciation and operators´ time is reasonable and fair to everyone.

José

MindFuLL
Aug '16

That is actually the definition of price fixing. If someone can afford to give something away indefinitely then it isn’t worth anything. If there is no distinction between what you do and the person who is cheaper then you are indeed overpriced. If someone is offering low prices to enter the market there is nothing wrong with that. You are an established business wanting “protection” from competition. This is the argument of anyone who has ever advocated price fixing.

keebie81
Aug '16

NO

There will always be someone out there to undercut your price no matter what business you do. You need to show people why you are the better value at your price. If you don’t get the people wanting to pay the bare minimum is it really a loss? Spend your focus on getting the type of customers you want and building their trust in your service.

gregh
Aug '16

I have thought about this too, and a minimum price is not really something I even considered, but these things have a way of levelling out if there is enough work to go around- those with super low prices will soon have to turn jobs away or increase their prices because they can’t cope with the volume -or no longer want to do that much work for that little money.

I think the answer is to drive more volume somehow but right now I think that there is just not that many jobs relative to the number of hubs.

SOC3D
Aug '16

@Matterthings,

I’m very curious about how this came about and as I’ve posted before I’m curious how hubs come up with the prices they do. Can you give a real world example and cost breakdown of a customer order?

garthvh
Aug '16

There was a .25 US cm3 minimum when I started, and for a little while after they dropped the minimum I was listed as low as .18 cm3 with a small startup cost. I don’t miss having the minimum and have generally raised prices over the last year while competing locally with a couple of super low priced hubs.

The business that comes in at .18 cm3 is really not worth worrying about, it only makes sense for a hobbyist trying to break even on a $300 printer kit using $20 a spool filament.

A lot of the customers for the cheapest option also wind up moving up in printer quality as time goes on, they start with the cheapest for a proof and then order a more expensive final version. The people printing thingiverse accessories usually just choose the cheapest hub.

Eugen_1
Aug '16

Totally agree… Price=Quality 99% of the time…

A $10 part that otherwise would cost $30-$50 elsewhere most definitely implies a very low quality print, a sub standard material, and most certainly the customer would end up with an unusable part…

I have tried sending parts to other hubs for printing that had cheaper prices then my own, just to verify quality, and I can show pictures side by side, for my print and their print which was a much lower price, the difference is like day and night…

For a customer it is very important to realize that by ordering a cheap part and end up not being able to use it because the quality is sub standard and or not as expected, then eventually it will cost the customer even more money, before they get the part they initially wanted…

TruNorth
Aug '16

Along with most people in this thread, I disagree. I have a new-ish hub. I get damn near zero orders. It is NOT because hubs in my area have lower prices. It is because hubs in my area have more reviews. Most people are NOT shopping for the lowest price, they are shopping for the best/most reviews. I looked at your hub, and your reviews seem excellent, and there are many of them. I have some trouble comprehending that you would be threatened by cheap hubs, because many of those cheap hubs are just trying to get orders - to get reviews - to get to your level. You’ve already got an upper hand on the entry level hubs. Making them charge at the same level you are charging does not seem very fair to them either.

Matterthings
Aug '16

In reply to TruNorth.

We have worked very hard for three years to get 75 reviews and we constantly monitor other hubs to have our prices at the same range. By the way, all hubs start with five stars even if they have one review.

We used to get one order per week and while we still get inquiries, since the cheap hubs appeared we get a job only once a month. When we ask the client why he did not assign his print to us they say they found a better price.

One of the cheap hubs has collected 156 reviews in 6 months and his prices are still barely covering his operation costs. He is a 17 year old kid with no expenses, it is great to see young entrepreneurs but he is killing everyone else but the worst part is that now customers are expecting low, unrealistic prices.

That is precisely why there are minimum prices set across all industries. As a customer you know an approximate cost of eggs at any supermarket or the average cost of services like a Laundromat. Prices do vary but they stay within a range, that creates fair competition and to gain customers you would add a discount on support removal, free shipping, same day manufacture, etc. In our opinion this is how things should work and it would be on the benefit of the customers, you and 3D Hubs.

Regards,

Matterthings.

Iceman24k
Aug '16

Agree, and seems like a monopoly or price fixing to me. JUST MY OPINION! Thank God We live in a capitalist economy. 3d hubs has been great to me thus far… I love what they do, and how they do it! I can’t think of a way to make it any more fair. I just worry about myself, and the minimum amount I am happy to print for. I love to print and especially educate those whom have never printed before, I get a lot of personal satisfaction from this, and I consider this as a reward also. 3d printing set aside for a second… I know there are a ton of rivals in my industry That Would LOVE to fix my prices for me lol, but that being said I have seen it befor and time after time(here’s an example)… Kum and Go will pump gas at a loss just to put rival stores out of business. Having my own ability to set my prices is what keeps our markets fair and competitive. and maybe just maybe. This 17yr old knows a thing or two about cornering a market share and is just operating at a loss until he/she puts their competition out of business(or gets them to quit). I look at someone near me charging Way Super Low Prices as a GREAT thing…That way I don’t get the clients that only care about price…but my prices are low I think, but also allow for what I want to accomplish. I base my prices on Cost of filament, time and electric plus other random consumables… I Considered the printers a loss befor I purchased, with all the advances in technology and the rapidly dropping price points. also I am attaching a simple spreadsheet that we started to help us calculate cost. I would absolutely LOVE to see how others are calculating prices. I spent so much time trying to find a great resource to calculate cost ect… with not a ton of options. :slight_smile: thank you everyone for taking time to read and HAPPY PRINTING!!! Please Don’t take away our freedoms :wink: and free market.
Copy of Formlabs costing.pdf 2 (14.2 KB)

Matterthings
Aug '16

Please read the original post,

We are NOT proposing FIXED prices but a BASE PRICE that no one can go lower.

This will encourage everyone to improve the quality of their prints and offer added values like free shipping, complimentary support removal, etc.

All the products that you buy in any store have a base price unless they are in offer and that is the base of capitalism.

This has nothing to do with freedom but with fairness.

Regards

Claudia and José

MindFuLL
Aug '16

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.

The intent of price fixing may be to push the price of a product as high as possible, generally leading to profits for all sellers but may also have the goal to fix, peg, discount, or stabilize prices. The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price\_fixing

SOC3D
Aug '16

@Iceman24k,

Very well put.

We use these calculations to find a price range for FDM printing based on PLA/ABS/PETG:

These are rough numbers and ranges the actual figures are considered proprietary.

Electric:

200W-750W Low end and High end

$.15 per KWH cost (Includes lighting and cooling overhead)

$.03 to $.1125 operating cost per hour

Filament:

Wholesale $16 per spool, Retail $25 per spool

Waste 10%

PLA 1.25g/cm3 $.022 to $.034 per cm3 (petg and abs are a little different due to density)

Printer depreciation:

Take the total cost of the printer, divide it by 24 hours, then 30 days then 3 months (or 2160) which is the cost to acquire a new printer every 90 days. For printers over $2,160 we use 180 days or 6 months.
$0.27-$1.04 per hour

3D Hubs fee

Student Discount*

Average failure rate is under 10% of time and materials.

Based on that my last large “Draft Mode” print which is meant for rapid prototypes at a low cost not for production quality or display/presentation prints came in at $.10 per cm3 for a little over $225. The actual print cost including support removal was $168.01 based on the high estimates. Those prices include buying a new $5,000+ printer in 3-6 months (probably a markforged or resin based machine)

MindFuLL
Aug '16

“That is precisely why there are minimum prices set across all industries.”
Where? Your hub must be located in Venezuela.

MindFuLL
Aug '16

Dictionary:
“price-fixing: the maintaining of prices at a certain level by agreement between competing sellers.”

Wikipedia:

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.

The intent of price fixing may be to push the price of a product as high as possible, generally leading to profits for all sellers but may also have the goal to fix, peg, discount, or stabilize prices. The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied.

Price fixing requires a conspiracy between sellers or buyers. The purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders. For example, manufacturers and retailers may conspire to sell at a common “retail” price; set a common minimum sales price,…"

Iceman24k
Aug '16

Awesome Breakdown Miaviator!!! AWESOME! Well composed and thought out, Thank You Very much for this and taking the time to write it! This helps me! THANK YOU!!!

SOC3D
Aug '16

@Matterthings and others,

In case you are not aware, 3D Hubs already has “a base price that no one can go lower”. https://puu.sh/qqOvK/5bb3572f47.png 3 I’ve run into this lack of freedom several times. I’ve tried to remove the startup cost and tried to give away free prints at Christmas time.

Imagine if someone is using a filament extruder they built at home and printing with FREE recycled plastic on a 3D printer they built or bought for next to nothing? Cost per cm3 could be down to $.01-$.02 or even sub penny. That Hub would already be forced to charge $1 per order + at least $.01 per cm3 even though there is a good chance they could make a profit at $.0075-$.008 per cm3. That is what the free market is about.

Matterthings
Aug '16

Hallo Mindfull.

“This kind of thinking is counter productive” according to? … You and the people that share your ideas.

If you are not capable of respecting other points of view and think that yours is the only truth, then we are also glad that you re not in charge.

One can tell that you just enjoy stirring things up just for fun. Please stay within the topic of our proposal.

You have voted against it and made your point. If you want to talk about capitalism and economy, please open another Talk.

Regards,

Jose (not from Venezuela but from Germany)

MindFuLL
Aug '16

So all of us must have the same operating costs? What if someone is running off solar panels? What about people who make their own filament?

MindFuLL
Aug '16

How am I off topic? I respect facts. The more that a point of view is supported with them, the more respect it deserves.

Iceman24k
Aug '16

(off topic on my part but) You Are Awesome! I am speechless, Doesn’t it feel awesome to give the prints away, and see the sparkles in the eyes of the ones on the receiving end! That warms my little heart, I love giving away little prints… I give away probably about 20 makerbot fish per week(and some Big Prints as well)…just for fun(to spread the word and to invoke thought

! People are absolutely amazed and pluss it is something they remember! I have had some coming back asking to Buy more Fish afterwords lol. But the main thing is; I am giving away knowledge and Ideas, and if I can influence one person out of all of them to follow their dreams and do something they love, then I have won in my eyes. It is a priceless feeling to give a child a 3d printed object, that would otherwise never be able to afford one. The children are our future, and children and adults both seem to be blown away by the power of computing when it manufactures a solid real object at the click of a button.

I was thinking the same thing too, I bumped up against something similar before. Trying to drop my prices to build up my feedback. Miaviator I would love to shake your hand sometime for real! You seem like an awesome person. Keep on Geekin On! and HAPPY PRINTING my friends! :slight_smile: It is thoughtful Kind Hearted People That Make this world tolerable. Thank You :slight_smile:

let’s keep 3d printing evolving and make it available to all…for the rich and the poor! and everything in between… :slight_smile:

MindFuLL
Aug '16

I am genuinely unaware of a system you described, “minimum prices set across all industries.”, off the top of my head other than Venezuela. Not meant to be aggressive/offensive.

SOC3D
Aug '16

@Matterthings José,

My calculations above show a real world operational cost for my hub operation. I believe I’m overpriced even at $.10 per cm3 as the calculations show I can make a profit in equipment and dollars at prices as low as $.05 per cm3.

The calculations from my other post below which I will expand upon here show that the CURRENT BASE PRICE already implemented by 3D Hubs is currently to high and may stifle future free market competition allowing another platform to encroach upon 3D hubs service.

Filament:

Recycled water bottles and other household plastics.

$0.00 per cm3

*It is important to note that the cost of filament could run into negative territory. If someone sets up a recycling center or sets up shop at a recycling center they could theoretically charge a small fee to recycle plastics which would yield them a negative cost per cm3 of filament.

Electric:

Solar or hydro power utilized for a home or another business.

$0.00 per hour (cost is written off for another entity)

Printer Depreciation:

Using modular design and true reprap philosophies the depreciation of a home made printer can easily reach less than 1% per month. Upgrades and new printers could be purchased for very little ($65-$100 using direct from china electronics and 3D printed parts)

Hourly or per CM3 cost of around $.005

3D Hubs Service Fee

Student Discount: Not offered to keep prices lower.

Labor and Profit: If this is a part time or ancillary business venture the printer would operate in an existing shop and simply bring in extra revenue. Very slim margins would be needed.

This scenario, which is not far fetched, would result in a per cm3 cost below THE CURRENT 3D HUBS FORCED BASE PRICE of $.01 per cm3 and $1 per order.

I would be willing to invest some money into a hub who wishes to operate this way and offer sub $.01 per cm3 prints.

SOC3D
Aug '16

Also off topic:

We actually print a ton of the Cube Gears off thingiverse for office workers to put on their desks. Every time we give one away we hear back that all visitors walk in, pick up the cube and start twisting it and asking questions. I ran into an issue a while back where I had dozens of spools of 10-100g of filament that I didn’t want to throw away and couldn’t use for orders so I just started printing pokemon and other little trinkets to give away.

It’s the same type of evangelism we did with bitcoin in 2010-2012 and continue today. We used to give out 10BTC ($30 at the time $6,000 now) silver physical bitcoins to promote awareness. Although I don’t think anyone will be selling a cube for 200X what they cost in a few years the goal of spreading awareness still applies.

Matterthings
Aug '16

Hello Miaviator

Your input is great.

3D hubs has operational costs and lives on the commission that they make on us. At $.10 per cm3 there is no business for them or for us.

We are not very different from a mechanic in a garage who has operational costs and charges a certain fee per hour and makes a profit with his hand labor, knowledge and even on the shipping of the spare parts he sales. Is that wrong or bad?

We all know how much a car mechanic charges and the same formula, as you have shown, should be used for makers with 3d printers.

We all need to feed our families and there is nothing wrong in making a profit.

We still believe there should be a BASE PRICE so we can all stand in common ground.

Regards,

José

Iceman24k
Aug '16

Here is what I should have wrote before all else lol!!! Sorry to all I have offended (if any at all)!!! I LOVE 3d Hubs and all of its community!

LOL Sorry But I have to add this lol, We are an international community!!! and so proud to be a part of this awesomeness!!!

(while maybe not proud to be a part of this conversation anymore) but guys We all get to share our opinions and that is part of what makes this community so great! The initial Post scared me and that is why I responded to it,( and read it three times). I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were communicating, but I also have a Young gentleman in my neck of the woods that started after I did, and OH My Goodness!!! WOW this kid (young adult)has blown everyone around here out of the water with his amount of work! But THAT IS FREAKIN COOL!!! I am astonished by him, and just downright impressed!!! He is kickin butt and taking Names lol, but I am super happy for him! I would Love to meet him, and my hat is off to him! also though I don’t feel threatened by him and I would hate for some entity to step in and tell him cannot do this anymore! It is his time, money, and life! Who would I be to tell him how to conduct his booming business, when it is clearly devouring mine lol, but I am serious, I am super stoked for him! also If I wanted I could do the same thing, and this is what keeps the prices fair for the CONSUMER.

Now mind that Price Control ect are different… But however I just don’t want anymore Price Floors, or ceilings and I am just down right against more regulations on pricing. I think the power of free will is awesome and the right to choose / set our own prices(and PRICE FLOOR) is a privilege, and A PRIVILEGE I LOVE! I cringe at the thought of someone telling what amount of monetary value I should project/impose/access upon myself. (this is what worried me originally)

I think 3d Hubs has made an Awesome Pricing System, with all the different options on how to calculate volume “bounding box” ect… , and Price wars are never fun when we are doing this for survival, but that is how most of this world operates. Competition can be friendly or it can be a Bear… good luck to all and HAPPY PRINTING :slight_smile:

PS. This is what I Love we can all sit around and discuss and even argue occasionally :slight_smile: or agree to disagree and AGREE!!!

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: and it all gets worked out and the misunderstandings normally fade away… It can be frustrating wanting jobs and constantly getting underbid, but I think there must be a better solution yet to come., like letting time straighten this out.or

You can always educate others as well drumming up new business…it can be a blast and enlightening to the community at the same time! If you need good quality clients, just a suggestion is start teaching seminars at your local libraries ect… CHEERS!

Iceman24k
Aug '16

Also LOOKING over a few things I WOULD LIKE TO SAY HOW IMPORTANT I THINK IT IS TO SUPPORT 3d Hubs!!! and to run every job through their site, especially Not encourage people to submit their Jobs through Email as this is fair to NO ONE PERIOD!!!

SOC3D
Aug '16

There IS A BASE PRICE already.

It is $1.00 per order and $.01 per cm3.

So we can all stand on common ground can we agree that there is a base price? Will you not agree with facts? Does your belief preclude you from reality?

Here is proof, evidence, facts: https://puu.sh/qr4Xi/6258c10ee4.png 2 You can see this BASE PRICE for yourself as well. Just enter 0 into the per print and per cm3 boxes.

Matterthings
Aug '16

Hello Miaviator!

Thank you for https://puu.sh/qr4Xi/6258c10ee4.png

The limits are unrealistic: who prints at $500 per cm3?

That $0.01 is what allows Hubs to put very low prices and it should be raised to something that reflects true operational costs.

I just hope that all of this has been read by someone at 3D Hubs.

Thank you for your inputs.

Have a great weekend!

MrDoggss
Aug '16

Part of the problem with this whole discussion is people trying to put apples and oranges in the same basket. A hub operator who spends $3000 on equipment, will obviously have a much higher cost structure than the one who spends $400. Do you expect the price of a print to be the same? No. Quality? Possibly, but unlikely. Either way, how can you expect the lower cost hub to charge more just so the other can “cover costs”?

This brings up another point. Hobbyist versus business. Do you treat your hub as a business? IS IT a business? Operating a business is apples to the hobbyists oranges when looking at a hub. As a hobbyist, if I just want earn a little extra to support running my printer, and am unconcerned with “operating costs”, why should I be forced to charge more?

Businesses and hobbyists aren’t competitors, they are separate worlds in the 3D printing universe. As such, setting a base price that favors the higher cost hubs, will severely hamper the rest of a community like 3DHubs.

To the OP: You wrote 2 thing I think undermine your position.

1. “If he would charge the correct price…” correct according to who? Correct according to what criteria? “Correct” is a very subjective term.

2. “Regardless, a client should pay a fair price for the work that it takes to deliver a 3d print.” Again, fair according to who?

Overall, the 3d printing market is being flooded with people and companies willing to sell their services and products. There are too many options out there to think a business-like hub could, or should, be compared to (or operated like) a hobby one. Apples and oranges.

A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It is up to the seller to determine if producing the product is worth the price.