Hubs with excessive low prices are bad for everyone

[MindFuLL]

Dictionary:
“price-fixing: the maintaining of prices at a certain level by agreement between competing sellers.”

Wikipedia:

"Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.

The intent of price fixing may be to push the price of a product as high as possible, generally leading to profits for all sellers but may also have the goal to fix, peg, discount, or stabilize prices. The defining characteristic of price fixing is any agreement regarding price, whether expressed or implied.

Price fixing requires a conspiracy between sellers or buyers. The purpose is to coordinate pricing for mutual benefit of the traders. For example, manufacturers and retailers may conspire to sell at a common “retail” price; set a common minimum sales price,…"

[Iceman24k]

Awesome Breakdown Miaviator!!! AWESOME! Well composed and thought out, Thank You Very much for this and taking the time to write it! This helps me! THANK YOU!!!

[SOC3D]

@Matterthings and others,

In case you are not aware, 3D Hubs already has “a base price that no one can go lower”. https://puu.sh/qqOvK/5bb3572f47.png I’ve run into this lack of freedom several times. I’ve tried to remove the startup cost and tried to give away free prints at Christmas time.

Imagine if someone is using a filament extruder they built at home and printing with FREE recycled plastic on a 3D printer they built or bought for next to nothing? Cost per cm3 could be down to $.01-$.02 or even sub penny. That Hub would already be forced to charge $1 per order + at least $.01 per cm3 even though there is a good chance they could make a profit at $.0075-$.008 per cm3. That is what the free market is about.

[MindFuLL]

This guy gets it.

[Matterthings]

Hello Mindfull.

Please read our post again. You brought the Fixed price idea into this conversation. We clearly have stated that we would like to see BASE PRICE so nobody can operate below cost making things fair for everyone.

From Wikipedia: Cost-based pricing strategy is based on the seller’s cost meaning that the set price covers all the costs of the production.

Reagards

[Matterthings]

Why the aggression?

We are trying to be constructive and you have made your point.

If you think we are in Venezuela you must be located in Mars.

Regards,

Jose

[MindFuLL]

Now you are conflating an individual entity’s business strategy with the regulating of an entire market place. If you don’t understand that BASE PRICE = PRICE FIXING, and that this kind of thinking is counter productive and destructive anytime it has been implemented in history, then I don’t know what else to say other than I’m thankful you are not in charge.

[Matterthings]

Hello Miaviator!

Thank you, this is a great contribution.

Without saying that you are backing our proposal of a minimum price, your calculations are a great way to show that there is indeed an operational cost and that there should be a base price that no one should be able to go below.

Thank you for the time you have taken.

Regards,

José

[MindFuLL]

Aggression? Just trying to debunk misinformation.
In my opinion the policy you are proposing is aggressive.

[Matterthings]

Hallo Mindfull.

“This kind of thinking is counter productive” according to? … You and the people that share your ideas.

If you are not capable of respecting other points of view and think that yours is the only truth, then we are also glad that you re not in charge.

One can tell that you just enjoy stirring things up just for fun. Please stay within the topic of our proposal.

You have voted against it and made your point. If you want to talk about capitalism and economy, please open another Talk.

Regards,

Jose (not from Venezuela but from Germany)

[MindFuLL]

So all of us must have the same operating costs? What if someone is running off solar panels? What about people who make their own filament?

[MindFuLL]

How am I off topic? I respect facts. The more that a point of view is supported with them, the more respect it deserves.

[Iceman24k]

(off topic on my part but) You Are Awesome! I am speechless, Doesn’t it feel awesome to give the prints away, and see the sparkles in the eyes of the ones on the receiving end! That warms my little heart, I love giving away little prints… I give away probably about 20 makerbot fish per week(and some Big Prints as well)…just for fun(to spread the word and to invoke thought

! People are absolutely amazed and pluss it is something they remember! I have had some coming back asking to Buy more Fish afterwords lol. But the main thing is; I am giving away knowledge and Ideas, and if I can influence one person out of all of them to follow their dreams and do something they love, then I have won in my eyes. It is a priceless feeling to give a child a 3d printed object, that would otherwise never be able to afford one. The children are our future, and children and adults both seem to be blown away by the power of computing when it manufactures a solid real object at the click of a button.

I was thinking the same thing too, I bumped up against something similar before. Trying to drop my prices to build up my feedback. Miaviator I would love to shake your hand sometime for real! You seem like an awesome person. Keep on Geekin On! and HAPPY PRINTING my friends! It is thoughtful Kind Hearted People That Make this world tolerable. Thank You

let’s keep 3d printing evolving and make it available to all…for the rich and the poor! and everything in between…

[MindFuLL]

I am genuinely unaware of a system you described, “minimum prices set across all industries.”, off the top of my head other than Venezuela. Not meant to be aggressive/offensive.

[SOC3D]

@Matterthings José,

My calculations above show a real world operational cost for my hub operation. I believe I’m overpriced even at $.10 per cm3 as the calculations show I can make a profit in equipment and dollars at prices as low as $.05 per cm3.

The calculations from my other post below which I will expand upon here show that the CURRENT BASE PRICE already implemented by 3D Hubs is currently to high and may stifle future free market competition allowing another platform to encroach upon 3D hubs service.

Filament:

Recycled water bottles and other household plastics.

$0.00 per cm3

*It is important to note that the cost of filament could run into negative territory. If someone sets up a recycling center or sets up shop at a recycling center they could theoretically charge a small fee to recycle plastics which would yield them a negative cost per cm3 of filament.

Electric:

Solar or hydro power utilized for a home or another business.

$0.00 per hour (cost is written off for another entity)

Printer Depreciation:

Using modular design and true reprap philosophies the depreciation of a home made printer can easily reach less than 1% per month. Upgrades and new printers could be purchased for very little ($65-$100 using direct from china electronics and 3D printed parts)

Hourly or per CM3 cost of around $.005

3D Hubs Service Fee

Student Discount: Not offered to keep prices lower.

Labor and Profit: If this is a part time or ancillary business venture the printer would operate in an existing shop and simply bring in extra revenue. Very slim margins would be needed.

This scenario, which is not far fetched, would result in a per cm3 cost below THE CURRENT 3D HUBS FORCED BASE PRICE of $.01 per cm3 and $1 per order.

I would be willing to invest some money into a hub who wishes to operate this way and offer sub $.01 per cm3 prints.

[SOC3D]

Precisely.

[SOC3D]

Also off topic:

We actually print a ton of the Cube Gears off thingiverse for office workers to put on their desks. Every time we give one away we hear back that all visitors walk in, pick up the cube and start twisting it and asking questions. I ran into an issue a while back where I had dozens of spools of 10-100g of filament that I didn’t want to throw away and couldn’t use for orders so I just started printing pokemon and other little trinkets to give away.

It’s the same type of evangelism we did with bitcoin in 2010-2012 and continue today. We used to give out 10BTC ($30 at the time $6,000 now) silver physical bitcoins to promote awareness. Although I don’t think anyone will be selling a cube for 200X what they cost in a few years the goal of spreading awareness still applies.

[Matterthings]

Hello Miaviator

Your input is great.

3D hubs has operational costs and lives on the commission that they make on us. At $.10 per cm3 there is no business for them or for us.

We are not very different from a mechanic in a garage who has operational costs and charges a certain fee per hour and makes a profit with his hand labor, knowledge and even on the shipping of the spare parts he sales. Is that wrong or bad?

We all know how much a car mechanic charges and the same formula, as you have shown, should be used for makers with 3d printers.

We all need to feed our families and there is nothing wrong in making a profit.

We still believe there should be a BASE PRICE so we can all stand in common ground.

Regards,

José

[Iceman24k]

Here is what I should have wrote before all else lol!!! Sorry to all I have offended (if any at all)!!! I LOVE 3d Hubs and all of its community!

LOL Sorry But I have to add this lol, We are an international community!!! and so proud to be a part of this awesomeness!!!

(while maybe not proud to be a part of this conversation anymore) but guys We all get to share our opinions and that is part of what makes this community so great! The initial Post scared me and that is why I responded to it,( and read it three times). I am sorry if I misunderstood what you were communicating, but I also have a Young gentleman in my neck of the woods that started after I did, and OH My Goodness!!! WOW this kid (young adult)has blown everyone around here out of the water with his amount of work! But THAT IS FREAKIN COOL!!! I am astonished by him, and just downright impressed!!! He is kickin butt and taking Names lol, but I am super happy for him! I would Love to meet him, and my hat is off to him! also though I don’t feel threatened by him and I would hate for some entity to step in and tell him cannot do this anymore! It is his time, money, and life! Who would I be to tell him how to conduct his booming business, when it is clearly devouring mine lol, but I am serious, I am super stoked for him! also If I wanted I could do the same thing, and this is what keeps the prices fair for the CONSUMER.

Now mind that Price Control ect are different… But however I just don’t want anymore Price Floors, or ceilings and I am just down right against more regulations on pricing. I think the power of free will is awesome and the right to choose / set our own prices(and PRICE FLOOR) is a privilege, and A PRIVILEGE I LOVE! I cringe at the thought of someone telling what amount of monetary value I should project/impose/access upon myself. (this is what worried me originally)

I think 3d Hubs has made an Awesome Pricing System, with all the different options on how to calculate volume “bounding box” ect… , and Price wars are never fun when we are doing this for survival, but that is how most of this world operates. Competition can be friendly or it can be a Bear… good luck to all and HAPPY PRINTING

PS. This is what I Love we can all sit around and discuss and even argue occasionally or agree to disagree and AGREE!!!

and it all gets worked out and the misunderstandings normally fade away… It can be frustrating wanting jobs and constantly getting underbid, but I think there must be a better solution yet to come., like letting time straighten this out.or

You can always educate others as well drumming up new business…it can be a blast and enlightening to the community at the same time! If you need good quality clients, just a suggestion is start teaching seminars at your local libraries ect… CHEERS!

[Iceman24k]

Also LOOKING over a few things I WOULD LIKE TO SAY HOW IMPORTANT I THINK IT IS TO SUPPORT 3d Hubs!!! and to run every job through their site, especially Not encourage people to submit their Jobs through Email as this is fair to NO ONE PERIOD!!!