I have no issue with setting standards for surface finish and supports and such. What does concern me however is how tolerances are set so high that even ABS plastic shrinkage could potentially put my part out of tolerance.
+1 on optional dimensional tolerances with a searchable badge
+1 on setting standards for surface finish and removal of support structures.
Hi @Vienna3DPrint,
I understand what you’re saying, but please understand, these guidelines are the default for what both parties should expect to deliver and receive. A lot of customers will not think about supports when sending in an order and will definitely not expect to receive a print with supports.
If you have the exception of a customer that does not want the support removed, feel free to deliver the print with supports. As long as it’s clearly discussed and agreed upon on the order page, anything goes basically.
I can’t repeat this enough, the guidelines are meant as a tool to align expectations between customer and Hub.
If you have a huge print that requires a lot of support, discuss it with your customer through the order comments. Perhaps they want to do it themselves, or you can charge them an hourly fee for the amount of time it will take you to remove the supports. Or perhaps the order should be printed on an SLS machine instead which doesn’t require any supports.
I hope this communicates well that you have the option to deviate from the guidelines as long as your customer is aware and agrees with you.
Best,
Robin - 3D Hubs
Hi @Sean_Houlihane,
Thank you for your response. Please understand that we don’t want to block you from anything. If you receive a model like the one in the Thingiverse link and you can only deliver it “untidy”, simply discuss this with your customer in the order comments. If he/she agrees, this completely fine.
We just don’t want the situation to arise that for you, it is very obvious that you can’t print this part very cleanly but the customer is not aware of this and is in for an unpleasant surprise if they were never informed of this.
" EXCEPTIONS
These guidelines apply to all FDM orders on 3D Hubs and can only be deviated from when specifically discussed and agreed upon between Hub and customer in the comments section on the order page."
I hope this makes sense.
Best,
Robin - 3D Hubs
Hi @PlastiPrint3D,
It is indeed a simple idea to make the guidelines optional but the problem is that it would prevent us from solving the problem we are trying to tackle. We’re trying to align expectations of both you as a Hub, and your customer, who often will be completely new to 3D printing and is only used to seeing injection moulded parts.
If you cannot meet the guidelines for whatever reason, please discuss this with your customer and align his/her expectations. Communication is really the main message here, we are not trying to make the lives of our Hubs more difficult. We want to make sure that all customers are aware of what they can expect from the 3D print that they order.
You can deviate from any part of the guidelines as long as you clearly communicate this to your customer and they agree with the change.
I hope this makes sense,
Best,
Robin - 3D Hubs
Is this really that big a problem? Honest question how often does this come up?
I think you want to hit on wording that both requires good prints from the hubs, and educates the consumer, while encouraging communications between the two.
Here is an example:
Dimensional accuracy. approximately +/- 1mm or 1%, depending on which is greater. Tolerances and spacing for parts that fit together should be built into the model. Please discuess tolerances for such items with your chosen Hub.
Surface quality: consistent, no delamination. Discernable details above .8mm. Please discuss with your chosen Hub if you have details below .8mm that are pertinent to the print.
Post processing: supports removed. As supports require additional time and material, there may be an additional fee for supports and support removal that is not reflected in the original quote from your chosen Hub. Surfaces that require support will have distinctive marring and will be less consitent.
----------------------
The key might be to try to get the customer to add some communications. I get a ton of prints that include no comment from the customer, it is just a model. So I am usually the person to start the communications, which is fine, but it would be great if we could encourage customers to add comments from the start!
See Robin, I disagree with this. I think the communications should be in the opposing direction. We as hubs should not have to talk almost poorly of ourselves to explain that there are guidelines that this platform has put in place that are unreasonable. This right off the bat makes us hubs look suspicious. In my opinion, this is the wrong way to go about it. You guys should be educating hubs on proper communication with their customers, asking them if tolerances are needed to begin with, not forcing it upon them. This gives us hubs more control, and gives the customer a better experience. I know that last part for a fact as any time someone is new to 3D printing, I go through a little spew about it all and what to expect, what it’s good for, best materials for certain situations etc. Forcing these guidelines seem unnecessary and in my honest opinion will only create frustration for both hubs and consumers.
And that was exactly my point oh so long ago. This seems like a solution for which they are creating a problem to fit. I can’t stress this enough, if this was a problem then it was due to lack of communication not lack of rules. I really don’t think this is the way to go about this.
No offense Robin, but you’ve spat in our faces with this one. Basically what you have stated here, is that you took selected people’s criticism and acknowledged it, then based on those few views which you guys selected, you already had enough mindset to implement it, but them put up a forum post to again only portray the illusion that we had a say. And you may try to argue against that, but pushing the update through right before the holiday season, despite the discussion on here, only proves that. I dislike that a handful sampling made the decision for all of us hubs. It affects all of us, why shouldn’t we all have had a say?
Maybe its me but I dont understand the big issue with a 1% or 1mm accuracy whichever is greater. Thats a quite large tolerance. If you cant print within that you need to work on your printing skills. I typically get under 0.2mm tolerance on parts I print. Looking at a part I did a while ago its off by .08 to .1mm
No offense but if you don’t understand it, you haven’t read this thread. There have been numerous points as to why it’s not feasible, and I have even stated that hitting the targets isn’t even my personal concern, it’s people manipulating those rules to get free prints. I suggest you start at the top and read your way down to get a full understanding of the points raised.
Well the same customer that is going to manipulate these rules to get free prints would most likely still complain and get a free print without these rules. This is also why you should price your prints to accommodate for the once in a while customer that causes issues. Same with any business you need to weigh the risks and prepare for them or close up and find something else to do
This is true, but tolerances as you’ve stated, have never been an issue for me. These rules seem to only be giving the customer more power over the hubs, when it’s unnecessary. If the hub communicates properly with the customer prior to the order being accepted then there should never be an issue in the first place. These guidelines make it easy for someone to improperly set up a pair of calipers, take a few photos and bam, there’s a 200$ order down the drain when the hub did nothing wrong. There have been other issues raised by the community on this forum, but I would be a broken record if I repeated them again. Also please don’t feel I’m attacking you. You’re raising different opinions and challenging what we thing which is good, and encouraging! So long as both sides of this argument are open and understanding to one another.
If you have a dispute you can call 3D hubs in and they can act as moderator… thing is at the end of the day you gotta play the role of a customer… if you get a part in that you specified as needing to be precise and someone send you a WILDLY out of tolerance part… you would not be very happy would you?
I feel like if you have a potential issue with an order its your job to communicate that with the client BEFORE you guys go agree on a print… That said I do understand your concerns but having a guideline you AND client can refer to would be a good thing in the long run.
One of my points though is that until now I’ve just done this personally, why is there suddenly a need for 3D hubs to intervene? And a customer doesn’t need to give ‘wildly’ out of tolerance parts, only 1% off. As some have brought up, unless we as hubs are to now measure every part we make and document it, there is no way to prove otherwise.
Quoting the list above: “FDM parts need to be produced within an accuracy of +/- 1mm or 1% depending on which is greater.” +/- 1MM is BIG… That means that your 20MM calibration cube could be 19 - 21 MM and STILL be a-ok. That is a huge tolerance. Their not asking you to hold .0005" tolerance on a 3" deep hole…
That’s a tiny tolerance, make a 200mm part and it’s got to be within 2mm?
It’s not about how it comes off your machine, it’s about how it measures when you get it there. Many materials can grow and shrink more than that just from differing moisture levels. Never mind the rest of the stuff I mentioned earlier.
It comes off your machine and measures perfect, gets to the customer and it’s out of tolerance. Now, who is footing the bill and who has to prove it was in spec (and how, since the guidelines are so vague with obviously no proper QA process in place) - guess what, it’s the hub.
1% for 20mm is 0.2mm (1/5th of 1mm)
1% for 200mm is 2mm (2*1mm)
bye, Tibor
1% or 1mm maximum. 20mm object= 0.2mm tolerance. 200mm object=1mm tolerance
bye, Tibor
Dimensional accuracy: +/- 1mm or 1% depending on which is greater
So
20mm object = +/- 1mm tolerance
200mm object = +/- 2mm tolerance
@Vienna3DPrint the guidelines say “whichever is greater”, so for a 20mm cube, 1% is 0.2mm, yes, but 1mm is greater so you could print anywhere between a 19.01mm and a 20.99mm cube and still be (just) within the 1mm tolerance for a print that should be 20mm.
The whole sentence says: “FDM parts need to be produced within an accuracy of +/- 1mm or 1% depending on which is greater.”
greater=accuracy
Maybe a native English speaker could formulate a less contradictory sentence.
bye, Tibor
As I mentioned before: greater is misleading, as I don´t think the dimension is meant, but the accuracy.
Robin must reformulate the sentence, as it leaves room for interpretation.
bye, Tibor
The greater refers to the dimension (i.e. +/- 1mm or 1%) and not the accuracy. It is common statement in engineering at least.
The below text is from the original quidelines draft text from 3DHUBS
FDM parts need to be produced within an accuracy of +/- 1mm or 1% depending on which is greater.
For example, in the case of a 40mm cube, a 1% accuracy requirement would result in a max of 0.4mm deviation. As this is below 1mm, the 1mm is leading and determines the maximum. A printed part of 40.6 x 39.4 x 39.3mm would be acceptable as the deviations are within this 1mm. Printing a cube that is 38.8 x 39.4 x 39.4mm would not pass the dimensional accuracy requirements as the width deviates more than 1 mm.
@Vienna3DPrint hmm, good point, I’m now wondering if I’ve read it the right way (as a native English speaker!). A better (but not necessarily ideal) sentence would be either of:
“FDM parts need to be produced within an accuracy of +/- 1mm or +/- 1%, whichever is the lesser inaccuracy.”
(so the 20mm cube should be produced to within 0.2mm, because 1% is less inaccurate)
or
“FDM parts need to be produced within an accuracy of +/- 1mm or +/- 1%, whichever is the greater inaccuracy.”
(so the 20mm cube should be produced to within 1mm, because that is the greater inaccuracy)
depending upon which meaning 3DHubs are actually looking for, and the 1% should be +/- as well. @Robin3D ?
edit (just noticed the doc does include examples)
Also with example it makes no sense.
40mm=2,5% (1mm), 400mm=1% (4mm) Why should the tolerance be bigger at smaller objects ?
40mm=1% (0.4mm), 400mm=0,25% (1mm) would be more accurate.
Maybe more understandable would be: Accuracy can be expected within 1mm deviation in any direction for objects below 100mm expansion and 1% deviation in any direction for objects above 100mm expansion.
But ok. Shall it be. I´ll pass on any questions to 3DHubs. It´s their guidelines, it´s their explanation.
bye, Tibor
Ok since it is easier than typing out my opinions on the new “rules” I thought i’d throw them into a quick little video… 3D Hubs FDM Rules? - YouTube
Anybody can get a part off the machine in that tolerance, even the inept, the issue is keeping it in tolerance. I could take nylon parts off my machine accurate to 0.01mm and I still wouldn’t guarantee a general 1% accuracy in nylon to a client unless it was to very specific measurement/temperature/moisture levels.
I’ve just taken a part off my cheap home machine which is supposed to be 130 x 50 x 25mm - it measures 130.05 x 50.02 x 24.95mm. You couldn’t really want any better, it’s full of 13mm holes which are 12.94-13.00mm in diameter, there’s 6 x 3mm holes in there which are all 3.00mm. The ovality and coning are all way within 1% of true too.
The issue? They won’t be tommorow when it’s absorbed some moisture and the temperature changes. Or next week when the stresses have relieved after spending some time at working temperature.
Hi all,
Allow me to check-in on this thread as well with an attempt to summarize and hopefully shed some light on the most asked questions (forgive me if it’s a bit lengthy).
Why these guidelines?
As mentioned in the original thread, the goal of the FDM quality guidelines is to improve FDM printing standards globally.
One of the top customer complaints is about print quality being below expectations. Phrased differently, there’s a huge opportunity for both Hubs and 3D Hubs to grow their business if a cross platform standard is set. This can be used to set the right expectations up front, as well as setting a minimum requirement for FDM printing, which enables us to cater to more professional audiences.
To be clear, the main message is to manage the customer’s expectation. These guidelines serve as a standard reference (e.g. backup) whenever there’s a dispute between customer and Hub. If a Hub and customer agree to deviate from the guidelines, that’s completely fine.
I hope this also explains that this is not about “policing” Hubs, but rather a tool to help set clear expectations.
Implementation of Guidelines
As many of you highlighted, after we’ve asked for feedback over the holidays (and you delivered) we failed to respond. This was a mistake on our side and I understand the negative impression it has left. I do want to stress that we’ve discussed all feedback elaborately and made changes accordingly. Below, more information on the main topics.
On dimensional accuracy
After checking with a significant sample of top Hubs as well as 3D printing experts from the industry, the current suggestion is considered to be reasonable.
To illustrate the variety of opinions, while the feedback here has been that the requirement might be too harsh, the opinion on Reddit has been that the requirements are too loose. My personal opinion is that with a well calibrated printer these requirements should be met without difficulty in most cases.
Clearly, there are scenarios in which an accuracy of 1mm might be tough to achieve - say, a FDM printed sphere. In those cases, be sure to set expectations with your customer before accepting the order. Again, the guidelines will be the point of reference whenever there’s a dispute between customer and Hub. If you both agree, then all is good.
On support removal
The majority of the customers expect to receive a finished product when ordering a print and we think that’s reasonable. Delivering a print with the support still on is considered below the minimum required level of service. Another indicator is that a large part of Hubs already delivers support removal in their service.
That being said, if a Hub and customer both agree that support can stay on the part - for faster delivery for example - then that’s their decision and 3D Hubs will not get involved.
We are aware that at this point there’s no automated system in place for calculating (and thus pricing) support. These tools are planned for Q2 / Q3 2017. Currently, we communicate to customers that possibly cost will be added for models that need a lot of support. For example, in the checkout; “Models with overhangs steeper than 45 degrees, needs support material possibly resulting in additional costs”.
Ok, hope that explains a bit. Please let me know if any questions remain.
Best,
Filemon
