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Jul 2017

Hi @CollectorCNC, @Zapaer & @,

As a member of the 3D Hubs support team for nearly 3 years now I’ve seen a lot of SLA orders come by. A big issue with these orders was the fact that customers often did not receive the order as they expected it. The SLA quality guidelines are there to align the services of all SLA Hubs in order to have a fair price competition.

Just as in the FDM Quality Guidelines, the guidelines can be overruled if both customer and Hub agree on different terms. For example, if a customer would like to remove supports themselves, by all means.

@CollectorCNC, please understand our position. We’re always trying to find the middle ground between what is best for the customers and what is best for the Hubs. It is not our intend to dictate anything but for the network to be reliable and successful, we feel this guidelines can be very beneficial to both parties.

Best,

Robin - 3D Hubs

@Robin3D,

Thanks for providing some insight. I think everyone will agree that guidelines around dimensional precision for prints make sense. Managing customer expectations is a much different animal and can, as I am sure 3D Hubs has found, be very difficult. Please understand that my intention is not to bite the hand feeds me.

3D Hubs initial promise to me as a hub operator was to deliver opportunity through an online marketplace that I could only dream of building which in turn would allow me to position my small business to grow. My job was to present my business effectively enough to differentiate myself from the other hubs, and deliver on customer expectations to ensure good reviews and repeat business.

So far, I feel like we’ve both kept our agreement, but I hope what you read below gives the 3D Hubs team some insight into how this feels to smaller operators such as myself, and why I object to some but not all of the changes that are happening.

What I see:

The 3D Hubs marketing has been increasingly focused on prints created using astronomically expensive equipment such as the new HP Jet fusion printer, while at the same time moving away from the maker/decentralized manufacturing movements. This comes across as 3D Hubs wanting to position itself as a more direct competitor to shapeways. In order to make that shift, a change is business strategy is required.

  • Average order price must go up in order to attract hubs that can swing the initial expense of the new tech required
  • Order volume must be shifted to hubs capable of obtaining big ticket tech so they will stick around
  • Hubs delivering prints using older technology (FDM and SLA) must be shed to enable the volume shift

All of this combined, allows remaining larger hubs to continue delivering the lower cost alternatives such as FDM and SLA that 3D Hubs is currently known for, allowing the marketing team to focus on the newest, shiniest tech while pushing public perception more the direction of shapeways and away from older less costly printing methods. The easiest way to accomplish this without just booting hubs, is by introducing added cost to the transaction through guidelines that force the base price of a print up, ie the guidelines around base levels of finishing which have no connection to actual print quality.

Once the base price has been pushed up enough, orders for $10 to $25 will decrease enough to choke out the little hubs (while remaining higher cost transactions continue to funnel to larger hubs), not because the customers aren’t there, but because there is no discussion with the operator. Customers simply don’t place the order. If they don’t place the order, the hub operator doesn’t get the opportunity to discuss whether or not the price can be adjusted based on a change in the agreed deliverable. The flip side is, if as a hub, I don’t go in and adjust the automated pricing, I get to look like the jerk who’s adding charges that are supposed to be built in according to the 3D Hubs website.

From a customer perspective all of this remains unseen because all they see is the slick marketing and a list of deliverables from the hub that they are mentally checking off without ever first having a conversation.

3D Hubs provides a valuable service, and I don’t see anything wrong with being in the business of making money, but I was sold on 3D Hubs because it fit with what I see as the soul of our species “making” a comeback against rampant and destructive mindless consumerism. I see 3D Hubs moving away from that and hope I can sway your needle to think again about the initial idea, decentralizing, and expanding the network of providers, while helping providers get in touch with local customers in an online world where it is increasingly difficult to be seen without large scale, complex, and expensive web development.

I agree, time for us to create our own system. 3d Hubs is getting way to ridiculous

If we are being forced to have the default as “You must remove supports.”, the chance for a conversation will not happen with my hub. I will be required to change my extremely inexpensive pricing to a model that incorporates my typical hourly rate. This will cause all of my prints to go from near cheapest, to a level that nobody would even click on my hub to “start a conversation” about the now mandatory support removal cost.

While some people host their printers on 3D Hubs as part of a business, I host mine to somewhat passively make money back on my printer while it isn’t being used for personal projects. My costs are able to be marginally above actual materials cost since I do some prep work, the printer does most of the work itself, I plop it in alcohol, and ship it off on my way to work. Being required to spend hours removing support materials, will make me add the actual cost of my time to the order. When sourcing anything not on this site I prefer the “do it myself” pricing to limit my costs. Others prefer this also. Forced support removal removes value from many hubs.

This should be a separately calculated line item that is customer selected during the order process. If you went to an auto parts store or a home improvement/hardware store, and people added labor costs to everything, people would stop shopping there. Lightswitch $3, mandatory electrician hourly rate of $125 for the bookrate has been added to your purchase, please contact us if you wish to discuss the pricing. The item never makes it in the cart.

What is sad is that 3DHubs is doing this in a vacuum. Did they reach out to hubs asking them what to do? Probably 2 or 3 in Amsterdam. My hubs prices are very low, as the goal for me is to get 3d printed parts out to people for a reasonable cost. There is no place to state what are optional services, or what MANDATORY services are. Might be time for us all to switch to other 3d printing sites, like makexyz.com.

If 3dHubs is going to micro-manage all of us hubs, then I would say that we are being employed by 3dHubs and that we should be also compensated per hour for anything that we have to do with regards to printing. Uber lost its claim that it was just an app and that it’s driver’s were subcontractors, and they are employees. If 3dHubs is going down this path, it is a slippery slope.

There next step is going to be that hubs won’t be able to assign prices for their prints, and that there is one set price per location.

I beilieve there can be a middle ground.

For example, there can be a bargaining option regarding terms in the guidline: Both side can accept some of the terms or all of them in the guideline, as long as both sides have reached an accord, there will be hardly any misunderstanding.

Agree with your points. I do support removal as a complimentary service for the most part. It isn’t a big deal and I want to see how the part is.
Like you, my costs are low so I can price accordingly. I am not trying to undercut anyone but just offering printing at a rate that I am ok with in my area so people can have access and learn about it.

Yep form2 is a gem! Takes a little time to figure out strengths and weaknesses but I have s nearly 100% success rate for print and ship

well…

i have used the price of surface area to get paid by the hours spent on printing… its not perfect, some parts have less surface area but takes more time etc… you get my point

for the material cost i have used the price for used material which only became available recently

what we real need is a way to upload slicer configs for the most popular slicers so that time needed can be calculated and the time spent factored in

of course for that to work 3dhubs can only support slicers that can be cloud driven… and they need to include some way to take post processing in to account…

Next they need to fix the sorting by distance feature… google api’s can do this for them and yet they still meassure distance by bird route and not the route by car or bike… for sure i’m not going to run the bike for 6 hours because the bird route says its close by and the fact is another

The support material removal option needs to be made a cost definable option that the customer can select during ordering.

Out of 50 orders, only one was surprised/confused by having support material attached. I am now spending more time explaining to the customer about support material and if they want me to remove it, or if they want to and I supply free side clippers. I even have “My prices do **NOT** include support material removal.” as the first line of my Hub’s About section which is visible during ordering, but I still have to explain it. If this system is not altered to have this as an optional cost based service (no matter how it get defined), I will voluntarily offline my hub until that does become a feature. That isn’t a declaration of protest, it is simply my determination that the current SLA guidelines will make my continued high level of service too much of an inconvenience for me. My other option is to add my hourly rate to my complex calculation, which will have me receive 0 orders (or people asking if my prices include hand delivery by Justin Bieber, where he also plays a full concert post delivery).

@Wirlybird curious as some of my non-3d hubs orders I do remove support and sand. This can take me anywhere from 1 to 3 hours depending on the number of parts, how fragile the parts are etc. If I were to use my typical rates, the minimum cost would be over $300 USD for a stupid simple print that take only 1 - 2 hours of time.

I think there is some flexibility in the guidelines. Ex. I have always removed support material, but offered full sanding and priming as an add on. I made sure to update my hub’s description to spell this out. (Basically, it’s how I can keep my price lower than other hubs.) With this stated up front, it creates an understanding with the customer and therefore meets the new guidelines. I think as long as customers aren’t surprised, then everyone is ok.

The first line of my hub states I don’t remove supports, nearly all of my clients have no idea what my hub ‘About’ section states unfortunately. Even though it also appears during ordering too, it again goes unread. This is why it needs to be selectable as part of the order process.

9 days later

I think I have solved my own problem within the 3D Hubs ordering process. Using colors creatively.

I know it! Most of the stuff I make doesn’t have very complicated supports so they are not to bad to remove. I just do light clean up on removal and let the customer know about finishing that they can do. I probably spend an inordinate amount of time fiddling with the supports so that when they print they can pop right off! I guess that is my OCD challenge!

I did have one job where each part had massive supports (each print was 35 hours) and were a pain to remove, sliced hands and all! Who knew PETG could be so sharp! Because of the size and cost of the job I still included it as basic support removal.