Projet 4500 versus 660 Failure Rates

MY3DAgency · 2016-03-09T21:49:57.000Z

Hi there,

Sorry to hear about your troubles with the 4500. We have a 660 and can vouch that for the most part, it is a highly reliable machine. If it is cleaned after every print (which is considered regular maintenance), and you adhere to the scheduled maintenance, your prints should finish successfully. The only error we’ve ever had, which has only happened a handful of times, is that the printhead failed to rezero. This is caused when there is an excessive amount of buildup on the fast axis.

Looking through the print reports for the past year, we’ve only had about 6-8 of these failures, and that’s with a ton of printing done.

Let me know if you have any other questions

Christian from MY3D Agency

thinksee3D · 2016-03-09T21:52:21.000Z

Very different printers. 4500 is for making precision parts in plastic for rapid prototyping and testing whilst 660 is for colour concept models in gypsum so parts not as precise and brittle so not good for fit and form testing. 4500 is a more complex and precise machine and if not maintained and calibrated correctly and used constantly, it will be problematic. 660 was from zcorp and is an older, simpler and more established technology. Essentially an inkjet printer on gypsum powder. Application is key here and 660 is not a replacement for the 4500 functionally. We sell 3DS machines sometimes so know the pitfalls.

Tomy · 2016-03-09T21:52:41.000Z

I havn’t used the 4500, but the 660 is a great machine…AS LONG AS YOU STICK TO THE REGULAR MAINTENANCE (CLEANSING AFTER EACH USE)…other than that it works fine.

Protodude · 2016-03-09T22:08:07.000Z

I have never worked on a 4500 for long time but I know the 660 may be the most reliable printer 3dsystems has to offer. However if you plan to produce very fragile parts it will be better with the 4500 than the 660 as those parts are Solid when finished printing. Removing excess Core from the build on a 660 can cause damage and or take a very long time to finish. I hope you find that helpful.

John_66 · 2016-03-09T22:10:20.000Z

We have had a 660 for two years and never had a failed print. Always kept in clean and maintain and printed like a dream. Never use the 4500 as colours were not vibrant enough. Happy to help if you want some test prints done. Isodo3d.com

3dofsc · 2016-03-09T22:13:55.000Z

You are experiencing the 4500 cyclone death spiral. I had a few clients that had bought this unit from 3ds and they had nothing but problems. 3ds would not own up to it but they recently cancelled the product. The 460, 660 and 860 are good products and very reliable. If you will contact me directly, I may be able to get you one at wholesale prices. I am a 3d dealer and printing services business in sc. We use the 460 in our operations and it is the most reliable printer I have. My office line is 888 914 7476. Good luck

3dChef · 2016-03-09T22:21:09.000Z

Hi.

Perhaps you can further discribe the problems you are facing with your 4500. It is best to evaluate this before commenting on the reliablity of the 660 particularly if it does not do what you purchased the 4500 for.

I personally do not own a 4500 but I do know a lot about them. I have been using the tech for 11 years.

Lil_3D · 2016-03-09T22:38:13.000Z

The problems you will face with a 660 or 650 (and there will be problems) will pale in comparison to the BS you’ll get from a 4500. If your customer base will take powder parts, switch, yesterday.

Nicholas_2 · 2016-03-09T22:38:13.000Z

I dont know . I have Only 360 end i don t used never

prototek · 2016-03-10T05:06:21.000Z

Hello, in our Service Bureau we had first the 460 plus, Then the 4500 (the first version) and now the 660 pro.

we had a lot of problems with the 4500, most of them solved with the updates, in the beginning it was impossible to finish big jobs. All the CJP family needs a very accurate maintaince process,machines have to Be clean but with the 4500 it’s very difficult beacause of the materials. Printhead is very expencive and it’seasier to damage it with failures, this kind of problems are not present in the 660 pro beacause it uses more fluid binders, powder runs better in the overflows and printhead are simple HP 11, easy to change. 660 pro is a lot faster then the 4500, materials are less expencive ( the half!), Platform is bigger and prototypes have more resolution and better colors. This are probabily the reason why 3D systems doesn’t produce the 4500 anymore. The only real advantage of the 4500 is the hardness of the material just out of the machine but only after long and expencive curing Times.

in our opinion the 660 pro is better, a stable and affordable machine, faster and productive, i hope this Could Be useful for you. Bye

Rapid3D · 2016-03-10T05:08:55.000Z

Hi

We have been running a 650 (660) since 2010, we have found it to be extremely reliable provided certain key maintenance is taken care of. Our machines run daily.

Genreration3d · 2016-03-10T05:32:50.000Z

We have had huge amounts of problems with CJP printers. Some of our partners/competitors experience the same issues. Around 50% of parts are ruined or not complete. We are facing similar problems so we feel your pain

3dChef · 2016-03-10T08:07:10.000Z

Here here. Good answer

3DPandE · 2016-03-10T13:27:43.000Z

Hi Scott,

This is Kurt from SDV Digital Manufacturing. We’re a service disabled veteran owned company and a 3D Systems reseller out of Elyria, Ohio. I’d like to try and help you out with your system if I can and get you up and running. Please call me at 440-822-5068 so we can discuss what’s going on with your system. I’d love to help any of you having problems with your 3D Systems printers.

Thanks,

Kurt

BluEdge3DLABSNY · 2016-03-10T15:04:18.000Z

Just as FYI, parts off the 660 “can” be made to be as strong if not stronger than what most of you are thinking. I’d imagine that most of you are using the “crazy glue” cyanoacrylate color bond. Which only penetrates about 4mm-5mm into the model.

I’d recommend going out and actually trying other liquids that have as low of a viscosity that will make the models even stronger. Hell you can use a 2 part epoxy or even a thremocure material like XLA Form (This is at least 5+ years old https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJauNmL9vmw) as alternatives infiltrants. Because these liquids take longer to cure the plaster continues to absorb even further. I mean how many of you have a convection oven to even dry the models? Don’t think that letting the model cure in the powder in the machine is the same as just leaving it out and immediately infiltrating. It’s not the same, it doesn’t feel the same and it most certainly doesn’t absorb the infiltrant the same. (depending on wall thickness).

It really bugs me that the perception of the models off the x60’s are that they are fragile and will always break. Do your homework, if the model is too fragile to pull out use the option to “make fixture” found under the tools menu. Then you can pull the model out by the fixture which ups the survival rate if you can’t get it out otherwise. Is this extra work, yes, but where’s it written than making models is supposed to be like microwaving popcorn…

3Dparts · 2016-03-10T16:23:06.000Z

AIS has a customer running a 660 24/7 since November with no service calls. We may also be able to help you with service on your 4500 if you are in the SoCal, NV, AZ or UT area. 702-951-4247 x288

3Dparts · 2016-03-10T16:36:59.000Z

AIS has a customer running a 660 24/7 since November with no service calls. We may also be able to help you with service on your 4500 if you are in the SoCal, NV, AZ or UT area. 702-951-4247 x288

gm1968 · 2016-03-10T18:12:22.000Z

Hi we have a 660 and It is very riable. Unfortunately we are closing our 3D area for other problems and we would like to sell it. If are you interested in, please let us know.

Bye

Giampiero

NRI3DLABSPA · 2016-03-14T21:41:34.000Z

The 660 is a good machine. You will get your share of errors so be prepared to learn the in’s and out’s of the machine. The powder machines require regular upkeep and experience pays with this equipment. Lots of benefits once you get it down in speed, volume and color If you do not need color or speed switch to an FDM machine from Stratasys. It’s all application dependent.

Scott_28 · 2016-03-29T11:19:18.000Z

Thanks to everyone for the advice, even those who don’t seem to own the printer! It seems we are not alone when it comes to our 4500. We have a range of errors, rarely the same and most seem to be caused by changes of the design between the 660 and 4500. IMHO, it seems the 4500 took a step back, rather than forward. The cleaning station is more basic, positioned badly and fails easily, due to spilled powder. There was a bad error in the original firmware which allowed the machine to overfill itself and block the vacuum. The head is fragile and ours became damaged very early on, unlike the 660 which costs buttons to replace, the 4500 is thousands. We are currently trying to get 3D systems to replace this on warranty, but we may be in for a legal fight on that one. They recently updated the firmware and now we constantly are having Binder Level Low warnings, when clearly there is plenty. This one seems to be model specific and presumably caused by a bug in the firmware. Add in the problems with Blacks and the cost and problems with the powder and I think we are at the point of giving up on the machine. I could go on, but to cut the story short there, the 660 seems the better choice!!!