First 3D printer for 'unknown' commercial use

[GuusR]

Hi everyone!

I work for a company which wants to purchase our first 3D printer and expand our manufacturing possibilities. We are based in the Netherlands and produce a variety of products, ranging from small to large size shop displays, signage, LED lighting (and fixtures) to routing solutions (sort of displays). We have the following constraints/wishlist;

- Budget up to €10k.

- Build size unknown but we do know it should be able to handle big parts. I was thinking of 200x200x200 mm and up

- We’d like to print without the hassle of building the printer or a lot of troubleshooting.

- We’d like good support, as “time is money”.

- Quality is desired for products that are in direct view of customers.

- We don’t really want constraints in the particular shapes we’d like to print, so PVA etc. is a possibility.

- Because of the commercial use of the 3D prints, we need to have materials that can withstand a short period (6 months tops) of heat and/or sunlight. Such as can be found in a shop window or shop display.

- We want to paint 3D prints, for example to create a metallic paint finish

- We don’t know exactly for what products we’ll use this first 3D printer, but we when we do know we’ll probably update or add another 3D printer.

I have read a lot of reviews (including bad reviews) and specs but I’d like to know how the experienced 3D printers think about this question;

What 3D printer is best to use in a professional, commercial environment, given that this is the first 3D printer and the desired print specifications are at this moment more or less unknown?

A penny for your thoughts!

[ProDonk]

Hey Guus,

My best practices are with the Ultimaker company.

The printers they offer don’t need anything to be set up, just plug it in and go.

Their new printer: the Ultimaker 3+ will do exactly what you need.

Price:

Logically, one of the most important things.

Not to worry, they’re well in your price range:

- Standard version: €2.995,- excl vat

- Extended: €3.695,- excl vat

Build volume:

The standard version comes with a build volume of 215 x 215 x 200 mm, but it has an extended version which makes printing of objects possible up to 215 x 215 x 300 mm.

Printhead:

This printer has a dual extruder which makes it possible to print two materials at the same time.

They have now also included easy to switch print heads so that you can decide what head best suits your filament or printjob.

Quality:

In terms of quality, these printers are also fine. They can print fast and in almost ridiculous resolution.

You can even get them to print at a layer height of only 20 micron.

Materials:

As far as now known the Ultimaker can print the following materials:

Nylon, PLA, ABS, CPE, PVA, CPE+, PC and TPU 95A.

So enough to choose from

Painting:

You can almost paint any 3d material, just make sure to sand it down properly and use the right primers/paint.

Support:

If needed, Ultimaker has great support. Since they are a Dutch company they also communicate in both English and Dutch.

[easy3dprint]

We recommend Stratasys fdm type printers. Results in terms of quality, mechanical properties and durability are far superior than any other cheap fabber or other professional low cost 3d printers.

We own a few Fortus and Dimension machines and never had any issue. The ABS M30 material is durable and can withstand harsh testing as well. Another plus is the soluble supports, which allows hand-off printing of any complex shape.

We have a 3 years old Stratasys uPrint SE plus which want to upgrade and we could source it for about half your budget

[Balslev]

Hey Guus,

I also have good experience with Ultimaker (2+) and have printet more than 2500 hours with the same machine only with minor problems.

My latest machine, wich i can also recommend, is Raise3D N2 have bigger build volume aprox. 300x300x300mm

Regards

Lars

[3DshopNL]

Wij hebben goede ervaring met de Pharao Mass Portal. Uitstekende print-kwaliteit.

De Grand Pharaoh XD-40 heeft een printvolume van ø40 bij 40 cm hoog, en kan uitgerust worden met een tripple head, dus printen in twee kleuren met ondersteuning is mogelijk. (of printen in drie kleuren…) Prijs voor de Grand Pharao met tripple head is € 9.000 excl. BTW, o.a. via 3DshopNL.com

[James_2]

Because of where you are the Ultimaker 3 is the obvious way to go.

Much is said about PLA and the lack of durability but I have had stuff in the garden for a year - after which some do fail (but they were very thin tricky prints).

At your budget you could get a UM3 that ‘just works’ and then add a Joseph Prusa Original - or a Lulzbot Taz 6 to experiment with more exotic materials - the TAZ probably being the obvious one as it uses a flavour of Cura to slice.

I am a long time UM user - (UMOs) so am biassed, but impressed with the design elements of the UM3 (I don’t have one) that answered a lot of the issues around the UM2 not liking the higher temps of more exotic materials (the UMO was pretty good at Nylon and XT) What I have read about the UM3 is that you are paying for the ‘nearly’ plug and play aspect of the machine.

The JP MK3 gets really good reviews, but would be a little bit more ‘hands on’.

There are some other good printers out there - but because you are in the Netherlands the Ultimaker is the really obvious choice.

James

[Videblu]

I think the big ones are going to be Fusion3, https://www.fusion3design.com/, Ultimaker 3, AlephObjects Taz6, and Raise3d https://www.raise3d.com/

Most of these, with the exception of the Ultimaker, are “workhorse machines.” They are expected to print and print and print. The Ultimaker is a smidge less reliable, and they’re going the way of Makerbot with expensive chipped filament (third party plastic is fully supported though).

[James_2]

They have always sold more expensive own brand filament - like most of the MFRS except this time they have fitted tags on them - but you can still use filament from any mfr and in fact they may sell spools with programmable chips to make your own - they just hold ‘profiles’. UM and Makerbot are miles apart - one went completely closed source, and the other is completely open source - to such a degree that the Taz6 uses UM slicer (cura) re-branded - you don’t get much more open source than that! - otherwise a good line up of candidates there.

[Griffin]

Hi,

i have worked in a custom sign and lighting business and if you would like to send me a message I will be glad to go further in depth with my suggestions.

In short, most businesses like yours will binifit more from other tools first. In order, I would suggest a large router. Then a continuous vinyl printer, a laser engraver and last a 3D printer.

The reason is time! You will have to design a CAD model to be 3D printed. Printing takes a long time (relatively speaking) and then you must spend time prepping the parts for paint. The surface finish is never good enough (in my openion) to paint directly.

If you can justify the cost of a 3D printer for business use, I would strongly recommend going with Stratasys.

We experimented with a number of other machines and even though the cost of material is lower failed prints and lengthy support removal processes ate up profits and ultimately cost us more than the machines were worth.

Stratasys has been almost 100% reliable and the soluble supports should be a requirement for business use.

We now have 4 of their machines. They run almost 24-7 with no complaints and can print for 72 hours on each spool of material.

For a business you need to know that when you click print you will get the part you want every time. There is almost no training required either so each employee can operate the machine easily.

Good Luck!

[cobnut]

@easy3dprint interesting, is this a uPrint SE Plus that can only print in two layer heights - 250 microns or 330 microns, hardly stellar by today’s standards, and can only print in a handful of special filaments, the cost of which are 5 - 10 times that of non-proprietary filaments ($170 a reel anyone?)? Oh, and you need to use a new build plate for every print. Sorry, but the UM3+ is going to knock that into touch in any way you care to choose.

This blog post (nothing to do with me, just found on Google) kinda sums up my feelings about these sort of printers…

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/3DPrinterShootout600PrintrbotVs20000UPrintSEPlus.aspx

This is a first printer for @GuusR and Stratasys is entirely the wrong manufacturer for that situation. There are many top quality printers for a lot less than half their budget that are at the top of the development curve and will produce great prints reliably with far, far lower running costs and much greater flexibility from being open-source. The money saved would pay for months, years of filament purchases, maybe even a second machine.

[GuusR]

Hi Griffin,

Thanks for the all the advice! I’ll message you for more info. Just for good order, we already have a multitude of different tools. We have 3 routers, the largest can produce ~1,5x4 meters, we have 3 laser cutter/engravers for plate material up to 1,5x3 meters. With a 3D printer we’d like to diversify our portfolio even more while at the same time delivering on time.

While we have some big tools the parts we produce with them can be quite small. One of the challenges we face is that the scale of our final products can vary quite a bit. That is why I try to search for a 3D printer that has quite a large build volume. Certain delta printers fit that description but seem to perform not so good with other factors.

Machines which I’ve looked into are; Ultimaker 3 Extended, Makerbot Replicator Z18, Opiliones 2L, Leapfrog Xeed V2, Leapfrog Creatr HS XL, Zortrax M300, Stratasys Projet systems, RepRap x400 and certain SLA printers such as Formlabs Form 2 and DWS DigitalWax 030x.

Problem is that we have little to no experience as well as no known commercial demand for 3D prints at the moment. We’re willing to invest in a machine that introduces us to 3D printing (and has an easier learning curve than the cheap printers) after which we can purchase 3D printers that suite future demands.

Stratasys seems to me as a final investment with top of the line tools, one step to high, so to speak.

[GuusR]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice! You mention Joseph Prusa Original or a Lulzbot Taz 6 as possible additions, what about a SLA printer for even smoother surfaces (for viewing purposes at least). Everybody mentions materials as a quite big factor with 3D printers. If you print the same object on the same printer with the same settings but different materials, how do the results vary between them?

I’m constantly focussing on build size which probably isn’t the best way to go. Could you enlighten me more about filament materials? I’ve read for instance that certain XYZ printers only allow their own filament cartridges. Because of the sensor in these cartridges and the vibrations of the printers itself the build process can be aborted because of sensor-loss. How is that with other printers?

GuusR

[cobnut]

Hi @GuusR I think you’ve got the right idea in terms of looking for an introduction to 3D printing, although I don’t necessarily agree that cheaper printers have a steeper learning curve, as long as you don’t sink to the very bottom of the market where learning may include actually making the machine work. Every printer you buy is going to have a learning curve of some sort but many of the most important lessons to be learned are also common to virtually every printer, so cheap or expensive, the learning is still there, the big difference is how much that learning has cost you. If there’s a chance the machine could end up gathering dust in a corner, it’s better to be a relatively inexpensive dust collector than something 3 or 4 times that cost.

SLA and FDM technologies are subtly different in how prints are prepared and how they’re finished and of the two, SLA is perhaps the more demanding, although as you say it can produce very smooth results. The Form 2 is an interesting printer, one I’ve looked at myself when considering getting into SLA, but it’s build volume is quite small compared to most FDM printers and materials aren’t cheap. Unless I’m mistaken, the DigitalWax 030x is way above your budget. Personally, I’d go to FDM first; a good printer that can achieve consistency below 100 microns is going to be able to produce some very nicely finished products.

Unfortunately, which one you go for is still a tough choice if you’re at all concerned about build volume. The Ultimaker 3 has its head above the others in many ways, but at 215mm X/Y its build plate is quite small compared to other printers. The Extended has a useful height of 300mm, but that’s really only that useful if you print a lot of stuff that’s tall and thin (or can be printed that way round), most of the larger customer prints I’ve done have needed the space in X & Y, not Z.

My other choice would be the Raise 3D N2 Plus; this has a substantial build volume (305 x 305 x 610), a crazy low potential layer height of just 10 microns (which would be lovely and smooth), has lots of other bells, whistles and other options, is the same sort of price as the UM3 Extended and has had some great reviews.

[Videblu]

If build size is a requirement, it’s a requirement. Work from there.

Filament run-out sensors can be retrofitted to most open-source hardware printers. It’s not a big deal really, that’s why most consumer printers don’t have them.

No printer that I know of shuts down due to vibrations in the printer by design.

Generally, print quality is best with PLA or similar materials, and it’s strong enough for most light-load applications and prototypes. ABS is good for temperature stability or a smooth appearance. It’s not the easiest material to print. PETG is relatively easy to print. It gives great strength compared to both ABS and PLA, and great temperature stability, all at the expense of stiffness. Objects printed in PETG are not as stiff as those made of other plastics. Nylon is the biggest, baddest, and most expensive commonly-printed material. Looking at the Taulman range of nylons, you can find anything from insane tensile strength to superior stiffness to flexibility. Most are quite difficult to print. Other engineering plastics include Polycarbonate (stronger than certain nylons), ASA, flexibles, like TPU and Ninjaflex, and support materials.

Note that different blends and formulations of materials can result in different properties, such as increased strength, easier printability, better bed adhesion, etc. This also means that the same type of material from different brands may perform differently.

Most cartridge printers are restricted to printing PLA and/or ABS.

Most printers on the market with heated beds and all-metal hotends can print these materials or be modified to do so.

SLA/DLP printers are good at making tiny, highly-detailed, non-functional parts. The photosensitive resin can be difficult to work with. These printers are used for totally different things than plastic printers.

[3Dscaleworks]

Hi Guus ,

Waarom neem je geen Leapfrog printer, goede Nederlandse kwaliteit. The Bolt is de nieuwe maatstaaf in 3 Dprinten van alle mogelijke kunststoffen. 3dontwerpen en printen , is denken naar de kracht van de printer Een FDM printer zoals Leapfrog kan een grote variëteit aan materialen printen. Maarr.

Het is en blijft investeren in tijd om het optimum te realiseren, dit geldt voor elke printer en zal de komende jaren nog wel zo blijven. Als je meer wilt weten over Leapfrog, hoor ik het graag. Buildvolume is ruimschoots, prijs 3,5 -5 K, goede begeleiding en dicht bij huis. dit zijn printer in het hogere segment desktop

https://www.lpfrg.com/nl/

groetjes

John

[secliways]

Hello,

since you only need a printer to print object for display only and you just only starting I would suggest the Ultimaker 3 Extended or a SLA printer like Formlab which gives you more shapes to experiment with. You may just buy both since your budget is 10k. You could also consider Simplify3d For slicing as the slicing software plays a big part in 3D printing. The 3D design quality also is important for good print results. Also consider the cost of material since you won’t be selling your prints yet that is an extra business cost to support.

Happy printing…