3D Hubs, Your new sorting system is completely unacceptable. Default sorting by completion date and prioritizing the Hubs that have a one day turnaround really hurts any Hub that is not a commercial operation, and makes working with “green” customers even more difficult than it already is. Its much easier to guarantee one day turnaround when you have 20+ printers at your disposal. I don’t offer 1 day turnaround not because I can’t, but because I want to ensure my customer gets prints that are the best quality possible, and gets the opportunity to have some form of relationship. Rush jobs don’t get that, and I don’t feel comfortable guaranteeing that with a one day turnaround. 3D hubs is not a professional prototyping shop, it was an alternative to the high costs of Shapeways and the like. It seems you guys are pushing more towards a cheap prototyping shop, which is ok, but there needs to be a balance. Do reviews even matter anymore here, or is only speed the dominant factor? I was on the first page for my area, now I’m at the bottom of the second. Conventionally, if I search for something on a site like Amazon or eBay the sellers or product with better reviews shows up first. I can filter by cost and/or delivery speed, but those are not the dominating factor. Have you completely forgotten who your starting user base was? It was the small hubs working out of basements and shops, and this really hurts. I understand you have a business to run, but everytime a major change is rolled out here, it appears to be to the benefit of commercial operations and to prioritize speed, these changes without any real warning (I never got an email about this) is getting tiring. Also, why would you implement the before implementing a sort by cost functionality? Edit: Title edited to more accurately reflect issue at hand
I couldn’t agree any more. When doing work in any field you have the option of Speed, Cost, or Quality. You can choose two at any given time, never three. It seems like as time goes on Hubs begins to approach prioritizing shops that choose one instead of two. SO many jobs require slight design modifications to make them an all around better fit for the user but this new ranking system penalizes hubs that try to help their customers reach a usable prototype in the end instead of just printing what they are given. If I wanted a cold heartless business relationship I would go get a better prototyping service like ProtoLabs or Shapeways.
Hubs used to be a place for less experienced tinkerers to come together with tinkerers and makers who had prototyping capabilities and more experience to solve a problem together, now its more like a cheapo discount prototyping house. Pick a user base and stick with it hubs! Otherwise you’ll just suck at doing both.
The last set of changes a while ago bumped me from 8 to 9.5, But i also have the disadvantage of not living in a main hub area. So local places get priority over me in the listing
I see what you mean, but I do not fully agree. If people order at these bigger commercial hubs, and they like their prints, it’s fast and the pricing is ok for THEM, then you can’t expect your hub to rank before that one right? I was ranked very low too, but after some orders of friends, good reviews, and allot of orders from strangers later on, I climbed to the top. All my free time next to school goes into 3D hubs, helping customers, printing as fast as possible, commenting as fast as possible, retrying prints that suck,…
I do have a 2 day turnaround, and have pricing that I would pay myself when I would order a print from somebody. I’ve really gone the extra mile for the last 5 months and I’m now ranked 2nd of my city, above alot of commercial 3D print stores/services.
But I understand that if you have a fulltime job, a family,… it can be hard for hubs to rank up, so I’m with you on the fact that 3D Hubs should change the ranking system, but not in the way that hubs with 4 days turnaround and 3 reviews are above hubs with 50 reviews and 2 days turnaround, I think that will never be possible. And yes, if you say that the quality at hubs with 1 day turnaround sucks, I guess the reviews will show that…
I definitely did not make that clear in my original post! I have to imagine it’s frustrating as a customer to deal with this. Lack of ability to sort by price would drive me insane.
My issue is that this new ranking doesn’t take into account what the customer wants, only the speed a Hub can deliver it at. If that’s all the customer wants and they need the print asap they should be able to filter by that. The sorting should not by default be based only on speed, and rank Hubs with one-day turnaround automatically on top. If a customer is just looking to print something with little care for how long it takes, you could very easily loose that customer because now your Hub is no longer one of the first few options. But what if a customer cares more about how well the Hub delivers orders, or their price? This is what I take issue with.
This sorting issue really is getting ridiculous. This is not a novel idea that Hubs is pioneering; Amazon, eBay even Etsy all allow you to sort by price, delivery time, number of reviews, and rating with the default sorting being a combination of reviews and ratings. Here, it would make sense to be able to sort by cost, distance (for pickup), rating/reviews and turnaround time. I don’t understand why this filtering functionality can’t just be applied here, and leave the default sorting as it was originally.
In addition, if this is how it’s going to be Hubs needs to implement some kind of one day cutoff time. It’s not fair to a customer or a Hub if a customer uploads a model here at 7 pm local time expecting to get it the next morning. A Hub should not be penalized for not being able to fulfill that expectation (as it currently stands, if someone submits an order to me know, Hubs states it should be done by tomorrow), and the customer should not have that expectation in the first place. Standard cut-off time for next day at any company I’ve worked with is noon local time, meaning if an order is not placed and paid for before 12 pm on 10/19, next day turnaround means the print’s expected completion date is 10/21.
Thank you for posting this! I just noticed the same, and it’s a bit sad. Sure I can usually fit a customer job in and get it done even for same-day pick-up, but I’d rather play it safe and surprise them with an early completion than promise 1-day and have to let them down because I had another print that took all night, or something.
@Enza3D I totally agree with the ranking issue, but I also agree with @AndreasDesmedt that if a customer needs a fast turnaround, they should be able to find Hubs that can deliver it. As others have suggested, it would seem logical to provide sorting options - an additional “question” beyond layer height and material, asking for urgency.
Having said this, I think most people will want things as soon as possible, even if they don’t need them as soon as possible. I like using Amazon Prime because I get everything the next day, but in truth, many things I order sit in my office for days before I have the time to actually use them.
However, I do think that if there can be only one sorting order, it should be based upon reviews and number of orders, not speed. If a customer needs next day delivery, they can look through the suggested Hubs to find one that offers this, but their primary sort order should ignore turnaround time.
Thanks for the comments, some good ideas which I’ll feedback to the product team. I also understand the concerns, so allow me to quickly elaborate;
The shipping service update being discussed here is only about transit time, from shipping to delivery. So print quality in relation to overall turn-around is not part of this update.
The default sorting is “Best Match” which takes into account many different aspects of being a Hub (more here).
We do plan to allow customers to choose to sort by “Delivery” time as well, next to “Best match” and “Distance”. But we’re not replacing the Best Match ranking in the checkout. Sorting by price is also on the roadmap.
It’s true that some customers are not sensitive to turn-around time but more to price or service, they can keep using the “Best Match” sorting and later on sort by “Price”.
Finally, in order to keep 3D Hubs competitive and grow the platform, and driving more orders to Hubs, we have to keep adding new services. One heavily requested service by customers is fast shipping.
Hope that explains. Please let me know if any questions remain.
From a customer view point, “fast shipping” translates to fast printing. “I see you have 24hr shipping, here is my order… ‘response your print request will take 38hrs to print.’ What!?! It says 24hrs… OK do it…” Order is completed and rated down because it is not with in customers hands in 24hrs. Or they are not willing to pay $44+ for over night shipping. That is not even taking into account the poor designs or incomplete files. Or 2 hrs later oh I made a design change. I want this instead. I could go on, but seriously the system is not even close to being balanced at all.
About variability. I guess you can capture a lot of the distance variation with different specified shipping options (dedicated to regions). Weight is a bit more tricky. However, the majority of prints is below 1kg. For very big prints you should have a bit more margin to play with. If an order is really massive, I recon the customer will understand special shipping is needed. For me, that has worked so far.
You are correct and I think we’re on the same page here. My issues was never with speed being a sorting option (it should be) just with how it was implemented. The default sorting issue appears to have been corrected, and maybe it was just a bug as the update was rolled out. I just want customers to have the easiest time getting what they want, and Hubs to find a balance.
Why is it that “keeping XXX competitive” always means loosing sight of the main user ship in favor of more profitable options?!
Please take a page from Makerbots book. They had a fantastic user base who loved their product, they WERE dedicated to putting out the best product they could, and they did a great job with the rep 2 and 2x, then they lost sight of who there users were and started going after the more professional and high end pro-sumer markets because they thought it was more profitable. They completely alienated their main user base that they had established and were unable to penetrate the professional market. No professional shops use Makerbots because they are too small and not reliable enough, and they’ve alienated the maker community to the point where this year at the World Maker Fair just the mention of a Makerbot was scoffed at by everyone unanimously.
It feels as though 3D hubs is approaching a fork in the road, one side is makers and the other is professional prototypes. I don’t think you guys are even in the same stratosphere as professional prototyping shops, The company I work for does hundreds of thousands of dollars in prototypes per year, and we don’t, and never will, use 3d hubs. Cost is not a motivating factor, neither is speed. We want accountability and quality. I can call up my contact at protolabs or any other professional prototyping company and talk to the engineer that is going to be making my part. On hubs, its kind of a crap shoot to whether or not a hub is run by an engineer with some free time or just some person who bought a printer.
For most personal projects this distinction is not a big deal but for the professional world that is a show stopper. And to be frank its not worth my time to sift through the hubs to find and try one that looks professional, I would just rather pay the premium and not have to worry about it.
Please pick a user base and stick with it. You have a loving maker community that leans on you for low risk prototypes and personal projects. IF you seriously want to go up against the big boys of prototyping and professional work you need to up your game by several orders of magnitude.
While this appears to be the case now, I know yesterday (at least during the afternoon) default sorting was based on shipping speed. This was brought to my attention by a customer who was trying to place a repeat order and couldn’t find my Hub, as well as by another Hub. I’m happy that’s not the case anymore.
I also have to agree that if a customer sees overnight delivery, they will expect one day turnaround. You guys will have to make it explicitly clear to them that they are mutually exclusive and selecting overnight delivery does not guarantee one day turnaround.
Regarding shipping, its impossible to set a hard cost on overnight delivery, because it’s based on weight and distance. Is it ok to just offer it but not set a hard cost? Otherwise, I’m going to have to set it ridiculously high and that probably won’t be right for a lot of orders.
I suppose it can be handled on a case by case basis as well; a customer who lives in New York can get 1 day delivery from just USPS, which is much cheaper, whereas someone in California would need to use FedEx/UPS. I’ll have to play around with options, but it may be beneficial to notify customers when they upload a print to the main search page that quoted shipping rates (unless for flat rate) are subject to change.
Please stop linking to this page of what makes a hub a “best match”.
1. The criteria is weak. What makes a hub a “best match” has far more factors than are listed on this page. If this is all the criteria used in “best match”, then the algorithm is very weak. Additional factors, such as material offered, colors offered, prints completed, and a host of many other factors are not reflected on that page.
2. I have spent an inordinate amount of time ranking pages by available information, based on what you show on that page. Based on the limited factors shown on that page, I have ran multiple scenarios on hubs. Almost always, based on just those factors, 3dhubs recommendation for “best match” comes back differently with my simulations than what shows as “best match”. Now, I know 3dhubs algorithms are “secret”, but that does not make them more accurate for “best match”.
As you know, I hate the “best match” terminology, and will continue to push for this important change in terminology.
Yup. I have a hub near me that lists as best match in the town where my hub is located.
It shows up first in my home town, where I live.
It has:
Lower response time
Less reviews
Less completed prints
More expensive pricing
Less colors
Less materials
Less services.
I also happen to know that the prints are much worse than mine.
I have over 100 prints, with PERFECT reviews.
I have had customers who printed there, and came back to me. But that hub shows up as best match in my hometown, even though it is farther away. (in fact, not even in my hometown)
Nothing is more insulting than seeing that hub listed as “best match”. What is amazing here, is that I am not complaining about it being listed first above me. Its the terminology. I have no problem being listed second on a list of “best matches”, but saying that hub is the “best match” is aggravating as hell.
Does the amount of business I have brought to my hub, not count for anything!!!
I do student work, put posters up in the local colleges, do print seminars at the library, and folks who go to 3dhubs see this other hub as “best match”.
Infuriating, and demotivating. What does a person have to do to be the “best match” at their own address?
Hubs is going to define “Best Match” as whatever they want, regardless of whether or not you like it. It’s a subjective definition and really should not be used at all on a site like this. How can anyone possibly know who a best match will be for a customer when a lot of factors (speed, cost, services, etc.) are entirely left out of the equation? The existing filters take care of things like materials and the services, but frankly, they are not that intuitive for a customer to use (outside of the material selection, that is nicely done).
Where you get ranked by the default sorting wouldn’t be as critical as it is now if the customer could actually sort through the results in a logical way. Really, the only true sorting anyone can do of Hubs they get matched with is by distance, which is really only useful for customers who are picking up. It would, in my mind, make far more sense to do away with the “Best Match” option and make the sorting able to be by cost (lowest to highest), by number of reviews/completed jobs (the Hub with the most reviews goes first), by quality of reviews (a Hub with more 5 stars ranks above one with more 4 star reviews), and by potential delivery time (incl. shipping and printing, Hubs will have to define some kind of cutoff time for this). All of this being in addition to existing filters.
“Hubs is going to define “Best Match” as whatever they want, regardless of whether or not you like it.”– Actually, I think 3dhubs does respond often to suggestions, and are open to hearing things we do not like. I would not categorize them as doing “whatever they want”. They have shown that user feedback does help them in determining changes to the way they do things. In fact, they are far more responsive than almost any other venue I can think of!
Other than that, I agree with everything you said here.
Again, my primary dislike is for the term “best match”.
I also think the results that get displayed do not match what they claim in the how to hub ranking page. I run the statistics, and they do not match.
I repeat, I am agreeing with you- I think they need to take more into account besides what is linked on their how to hub ranking page.
Isn’t it maybe a good idea to just set filters? Than you can speak about a best match. People can choose a color, a max distance, a resolution, a materiaal,… Then you can talk about a best match. A hub that can deliver what the customer set in the filters. How can you determine a best match for a customer when you only have a file? You don’t even know what the customer wants…
Whatever has happened to the sorting system, I’m not complaining about it at all! I’ve had my hub up for for months, with no orders at all. Then in the last few days I’ve had 5 orders. So it’s not all doom and gloom, at least not for me. I’m not sure how my hub (current ranking 13.7) is attractive to users in my area, but for whatever reason, suddenly people are sending orders my way.
Congrats on the orders! If I may make a suggestion, add more pictures! You have some nice machines and a good variety of filament, so showcase what you can do. Pictures always help drive orders up, people like seeing what you can do before they buy from you.
