S3D Incomplete First Layer

jv550510 · 2017-01-26T03:35:59.000Z

Just purchased Simplify3d to run my Taz 5 printers and I must say, the prints are fantastic HOWEVER for some reason it will not print the first or last layer properly??? In the pictures you can see it’s incomplete and almost looks as if its printing every other row??? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

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cobnut · 2017-01-26T10:37:27.000Z

Hi @jv550510 unless I’m mistaken, the Taz 5 has a minimum printing height of 0.075mm (75 microns); your settings screenshot shows a layer height of 50 microns and you’ve asked for a first layer at 85% of that (42.5 microns). Essentially, you’re asking the printer to print way too thin a first layer. The first layer thickness is really important and sometimes it needs to be thinner than the rest of the print (when the rest of the print is relatively thick layers), sometimes it needs to be thicker (when the rest of the print is very thin layers). For a 50 micron print, I’d actually recommend setting your first layer height at around 150 - 200%, maybe even more, but whatever you choose, your layer height can’t be lower than the spec of the machine (so if it is 75 microns, that’s the thinnest you can print at) and the first layer at this height can’t be less than 100%. I note that the profile name actually says “100 microns”, so you’ve modified it to below what the printer can achieve.

The top layer problem is something else. Was that print done under the settings in the screen shot? That doesn’t look like 4 top layers, it looks more like 1. It could be not enough top layers, maybe a little under-extrusion.

wirlybird · 2017-01-26T11:55:38.000Z

Agree on the first layer. Really thin then thinning it more. To print that low for layers the machine is going to have to be set perfectly.

Top layer could be that there are not enough top layers for the infill percent.

DesignGuyJared · 2017-01-26T12:32:08.000Z

The first layer problem looks like it is because the first layer width is set to 200%. 200% means that it IS printing every other row. The bigger the number, the more that gap will increase. Change that to 110% and run the print again. I think your layer height is actually fine.

mievans · 2017-01-26T12:47:05.000Z

Hi,

Okay, first of all I would try to work out if this is the model or the software. The print settings don’t look wrong straight off the bat but maybe look at layer height more around 0.1 -0.15 for a part like that unless you need real fine detail?

Some diagnosis steps:

- Try the same model and use Cura software (LulzBot | Cura) with the TAZ 5 setup - even just print the first few layers (try with the basic pre-loaded TAZ 5 ‘high detail’ setting).

- If the Cura print fails then looking at the print this could be an issue with the model (what software was the model made in?)

- If the Cura print is fine then is likely the software - look at the support settings - from the photos it looks like its almost trying to do some sort of rafting or maybe the extrusion rate might be different during infil? (Maybe not enough material coming out during those parts of the print - again if the printer is trying to do 0.05 then might be due to that - maybe try again at 0.1?)

- If you need to learn the setting for various materials, Cura is already setup by lulzbot - Load in your model, select the material in basic mode and then switch it to expert mode… Once you get used to the settings, layer heights etc only then would I recommend playing about with other systems.

Sorry we’ve not used Simplify3D much (does look like there is some good open settings to play with) and with our TAZ printers we find Cura does everything so consistantly we haven’t even looked elsewhere…

Regards

Mi

www.3dhubs.com/service/mievans

jv550510 · 2017-01-26T13:33:10.000Z

I was thinking the layer width option was, in essence, the extrusion factor. Now that you point that out, it does make a lot more sensense! lol I’ll double check and test it this evening and update you guys with the results.

The only thing that still confuses me though is when I open the same part in Cura, it gives me these same weird results which it has never done before. I’m starting to think S3D might have somehow changed my firmware (or is it software?) on the printers.

Thanks for the input and I’ll update everyone this evening after work.

jv550510 · 2017-01-26T13:37:33.000Z

I had it set to 50 micron just for a test, I get the same results at 100, 200, and 300 as well. The even weirder part is now Cura is doing this same underextrusion bottom and top layers when it’s worked perfecting since last summer.

I’ll contact S3D this evening for their input.

Thank you for the advice!

DesignGuyJared · 2017-01-26T13:54:37.000Z

Your problem on the first layer with the gaps has everything to do with that “First Layer Width” Setting of 200%. Change it closer to 100%.

mievans · 2017-01-26T14:02:51.000Z

Yes, if happening with Cura and the settings as per the pre-defined settings then could be firmware issue. To be safe I would get yourself back to an original starting point with a working model and get a small print off working and then go through changing just 1 parameter at a time until you get to where you want it to be on whatever software.

TAZ 5 firmware can be downloaded from here LulzBot | Downloads to get you back to a starting point.

mievans · 2017-01-26T14:04:50.000Z

Also if you really get stuck - get the .stl file over and we’ve got a TAZ 5 sat here we can try it on for you and check the first few layers to help get it dialled in (if that helps).

jv550510 · 2017-01-26T15:26:45.000Z

Thank you for the reply and advice. The issue was occurring at all resolutions, 50 up to 300. I had it set to low just to experiment.

The model is fine. I’ve printed it before having used Cura for the past 8 months and I’ve never had issues such as this. The underextrusion is occurring on all prints.

I contacted Lulzbot and they told me to reset the firmware on the prints (updating from Marlin 2015 to 1.0.0.1 I think) and that might be the fix since it’s what S3D is suppose to operate off of.

I’ve attached a few pictures below if you’d like to see the comparison between The Marvin printed on the Cura software (left at 180micron) vs S3D (right at 150 micron) and both from the exact same printer and spool of filament (cheap Inland 3mm silver). Fortunately for me, the issue I’m experiencing doesn’t affect the sides for these rounded prints so I’m not totally out of operation!

Again, thank you for your time!

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jv550510 · 2017-01-26T15:34:02.000Z

Everyone, thanks for the replys.

Current word from Lulzbot Support (thus far much better than S3D) is to update the firmware and see if that resolves the issue since the underextrusion/line spacing is only on the top and bottom layers. With some luck, my parts won’t look like kitchen strainers anymore!

Attached is a photo from last night. 50% infill, full honeycomb, and 4 layers top and bottom. Transparent part lol. Although other details are masterfully done!

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DesignGuyJared · 2017-01-26T17:04:16.000Z

Did you try changing the first layer width from 200% to 110%? That should fix your first layer problem.

jv550510 · 2017-01-26T18:05:18.000Z

I have not yet changed that setting for the first layer but I will this evening when I get home.

Outside of the first layer problem, there should still be 3 layers above that and then 4 more layers on the top. I would assume that regardless of that “first layer width” setting being incorrect, I’d think the remainder of the print should be solid enough to prevent to prevent the part from being transparent. I hope you are correct tho. I’ll test this when I get home and update everyone as soon as a solution is found. Thanks again for your time and help!

wirlybird · 2017-01-26T18:06:04.000Z

That top layer is pillowing. Google it, not uncommon.

jv550510 · 2017-01-27T07:05:40.000Z

Finally figured it out. Thanks everyone!

As it turns out, the download of S3D someone screwed up the default firmware on the Taz printers. Thanks to Lulzbot (and no thanks to S3D who never responded once to me), Lulzbot Support lived up to their reputation and walk walked me through the process to reset the default firmware using Cura. This fixed the spacing issue.

Afterwards, I was tinkering around with some 20x20x20 cubes for the extrusion and other settings. As DesignGuyJared pointed out the layer width setting, this refers to the bead size. Basically S3D multiplies the extrusion as the Width setting is increased, very misleading comparing the name to the description. My settings and results are posted below…
Resolution: 300 micron (sped up the printing process for testing)
Layer Width: 150%
Layer Height 100%
Extrusion Multiplier: 1.15
Speed First Layer: 60% (of 50mm/s)
Print Pattern: Inside-Out

This give me the results in the following picture. Almost spot on in Length, Width, and Height. Excellent surface bonding. The only thing I did now was lower the Z stop by a 1/16 of a turn for a little tighter first layer.

Again, thank you to everyone for the advice and help!

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DesignGuyJared · 2017-01-27T10:32:47.000Z

Great to hear! Keep messing with the settings to get a better understanding of what everything does in S3D, and soon you will dial in near perfect prints. I have 7 3D printers (most are Makerbot Replicator 2) with different nozzle diameters, and after a couple of years and several thousand hours of printing, I have found some settings more helpful than others. One very important thing I have found is that you want your nozzle diameter setting in S3D to match what is on the machine. Even more critical to perfect prints, is that you actually put a caliper on your filament to see what the diameter actually is. For example, I use 1.75mm filament but find that most rolls of my favorite brand (Hatchbox) measures somewhere between 1.72 and 1.76. Each roll may differ slightly, but when I measure each roll and set my S3D settings to match, the results are incredible. I’m wondering if your settings could be off a little in one of these two areas, because you shouldn’t have to bump up your extrusion multiplier. If doing so improves your prints, that indicates incorrect settings somewhere else. Typically the problem will be with one of the two things mentioned above. Don’t hesitate to reach out if you need further help getting those settings dialed in. Happy printing!

Kestrel038 · 2017-07-30T10:29:28.000Z

The problem with the top is your top layers setting. when printing 50 micron layers, the 4 top layers only give a 0.2mm top shell. I tend to run 8-10 top layers at 50 microns to give a top shell of 0.4 - 0.5mm thick. This reduces pillowing and any other artifacts from bridging over the infill and will give you a nice smooth top layer.

So divide 0.5 by the layer height and that will tell you how many top and bottom layers to use. (I tend to use fewer bottom layers because I always set the first layer much thicker than the rast… it helps to get a solid bottom layer and negates any tiny bed levelling issues.