Large scale printer build

[PepCo_Parker]

Hello 3d hubs! Just me back with yet another question/challenge/needing of advice. So I’m finally within budget range of building a larger scale 3d printer. By larger scale I mean I’d like to double it in the x and y, then up from 200mm to 500mm in the z. General consensus said to use silicon heating beds, as well I’d like to be using v slot aluminum extrusion with rollers for the x and y axis. So naturally I figured before suffering through all the mistakes that are bound to happen, I’d come here to ask for advice from the many people whom have quite possibly already done it! Any advice or input at all is greatly welcomed. Thanks again everyone!

[Joseph_Romano]

Pepstick,

I’m currently building a 12x12x12" Pegasus printer from MakerFarm, and V-rail is naturally better than linear rails. both of my printers have V-Rails, and the sturdy structure is superb with long lengths. Especially when trying to get precise results with a direct-drive extruder (more weight on the rail, which could cause sagging with longer length rod). You can build the complete frame from V-rials, and is super easy/strong. I’d suggest a silicone heated bed, since I haven’t seen a kapton element that size so far. if so, I’d go with that.

Longer V-Rail:

OpenBuilds

I’d get these wheels (Extreme line). They’ve been my favorite so far.

Xtreme Solid V Wheel Kit

My second printer (12x12x12) for reference:

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If you need any help or questions, don’t hesitate to shoot me an email at jromano@romanomfg.com

I’m in Metro Detroit as well, and would definitely give you a hand with this project.

[PepCo_Parker]

Thanks so much for the reply and all the advice! As well thanks to everyone who has upvoted the post, my friends recently showed me that this post actually made it out to an email alert in search of fellow hub operators that might be able to provide advice! This really helps and I thank everyone again for their time.

Thanks again Joseph, I’ll most likely be contacting you some time in the future when it comes to the end stages of my printer design, as I’m most likely building a couple of the printer that I wish to make rather than just one which will all be part of the fun of it!

[PepCo_Parker]

Funny enough, the wheel’s you actually linked me too were the exact ones I was planning on purchasing. Very nice reassurance that I was on the right track. (No pun intended)

Thanks again!

[Joseph_Romano]

You’re welcome! I’d love to see what you come up with, for you next printer. Especially if you’re going to design it!

[Oscar_svensson]

Hello Pepstick!

I’ve just finished my build of a printer almost in the cubic meter range, and can say that there is one word that should be thought of in every part of the build: stability. If you want decent prints you need a frame that can’t flex, preferably at all, since the momentum of a moving printhead at the end of 500 mm long aluminum extrusions will be quite significant. When you are planning and designing your machine, don’t be cheap. Aim for beefier extrusions, bigger motors, etc.

In by printer the frame is a cube built from misumi extrusions 25*50 millimeters, and if I would build another one chances are that I would change some of these for 50*50 millimeters. Also, the wheels for the V-slot type extrusion are good, as long as you don’t have strong forces acting across their axis. Then you can see patterns in the parts that indicates that something that shouldn’t be moving is.

For linear motion I would instead recommend real linear guides (such as something similar to this:http://www.skf.com/binary/21-48477/LLMHS%2012_tcm_12-48477.png). They are expensive but can be bought second hand off eBay, and will outperform everything.

For Z-motion I hope that you are not planning on using the threaded rod that seems to be a bit to standard in the diy 3d-printing world.

Instead try to find real ballsrews, which is what I use in my printer, and the run beautifully. Also try to make some real supports for the end of these, especially the bottom one which carries the weight. Are you planning to have a moving bed? If the bed will move in Z I would strongly recommend that you use both thrust bearings as well as traditional axial ball bearings to support the bed.

For the bed, the silicone heaters are the way to go. Also, forget about the glass that most people use. Instead get a good precision milled and cast plate of aluminium. I have a 10mm plate with 2,2kW underneath. This heats to about 80°C in about 7 minutes. Try to aim for about the same wattage per cm^2 for reasonable heating times. Also: use mains power and a ssr relay (the cheap ones from eBay or aliexpress work well enough).

As a final recommendation I would say that you should think of encapsulating the build chamber and have this heated to about 60°C. Otherwise you will be limited to pla and maybe PETG, the rest of the materials would crack and delaminate.

If you have any more questions or want images of what I’ve built, just send me an email to bo.oscar.svensson@gmail.com

Good luck with your build!

[PepCo_Parker]

Thanks so much for all the advice! It’s great to hear that there’s other people taking on almost the exact same project as I am. I was planning on having the bed move in the z yes, as well the reason I had planned for a glass bed is currently all my printers are aluminum beds, and I actually just ended up going out and buying glass sheets for them as I’ve found with a little bit of glue on it the first time it works well from then on with both pla and abs. It’s good to know that 20mm extrusion might not do it. With a lack of experience I figured that would be more than enough so thanks for saving me that headache. As well I was planning on enclosing it all, especially where I live if I didn’t enclose it then there’d be no chance of me using it in the winter. Thanks again everyone for your time and support! I really do appreciate all feedback given!

[tpalagyi]

Hi,

I totally agree with Oscar. Make the strongest frame you can, with the lightest moving mass as possible. Use quality mechanical parts witch will ensure you will have accurate and smooth motion. V-slot have the advantage to reduce vibration due its plastic wheels, but not sure how well it will perform, but if it will have issues you can always mount proper linear rails(Oscar linked it) on to v-slot extrusions.

The ball screw is really nice for the Z its ensure accurate and smooth motion if supported with linear bearings, the price is a bit high but can be ordered form ebay/ali for quite a good price. Just look for SFU1204 (12mm diameter 4mm move per rotation), When you have the final printer plans order the ball screw in the proper length you need with end machining and support bearings. (like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-sets-ballscrew-SFU1204-L500mm-ballnut-1BK-BF10-end-support-coupler-CNC-/162038965428?hash=item25ba4664b4:g:EwMAAOSwCQNWb45~ )

For the XY motion use belts but for bigger printers a stronger belt is a must, you can use GT2 still, but 10mm wide and reinforced width steel cord ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/2M-x-10mm-Open-End-Steel-Cords-Reinforced-PU-GT2-Timing-Belt-for-DIY-3D-Printer-/131760231974?hash=item1ead859626:g:abwAAOSwDNdV4BM4 )

For the X axis just put a Nema17 motor on the extrusion, but for the Y use 2 belts on the side joined together with a rod in the back, and this rod should be moved with a Nema23 motor with small belt and 1:2 gear ratio. (the motors must be chosen also wisely regarding the voltage, torque and inertia)

For the electronics forget the ramps and use a MKS SBASE V1.2 ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-3D-priter-Smoothieware-controller-board-MKS-SBASE-V1-2-opensource-32bit-/152067619542?hash=item2367efbad6:g:sywAAOSwYmZXHibw ) its more powerful, also with a touchscreen option.

The heat bed must be done with silicone heater(s) and SSRs using an aluminum plate witch thickens must be chosen regarding the size of the printer. ( the bigger the printer a thicker plate is required) Don’t put glass on it will tend to break in bigger size.

The best solution is to drill small holes(0.7 or 0.8mm) in a pattern into the aluminum plate, just look at the Zortrax m200 print plate for an idea, you will have to use raft for the prints to stuck it into the holes but its greatly eliminates warping if the printer chamber is enclosed.

Thats for now

(I have built several CNC machines, and 3D printers so fell free to ask any questions)

For the budget side 800-1000 USD should cover all the costs.

Regards,

Tamas

[Oscar_svensson]

Hello!

Tamas gives some very good advice above.

When you design the printer, if you have access to a good cad-package, do some FEM-analyses on how the frame will perform under loads. You might already have thought of it, but it was some of the best advice given to me when I built my machine so i thought that someone else could use it too. And when doing this, see if you can get an analysis of how the frame flexes when the printhead moves at speeds, since this will make quite a substantial difference from when everything is still.

For XY motion I would highly suggest that you take a look into Core-XY, since this gives you a static arrangement of steppers. In theory it should also give you twice the force when moving straight in X or Y, since you have two motors working together.

For electronics, 32 bit is a must if you want to have a LCD. However, I would look for something with removable stepper drivers since this can accommodate other drivers if those supplied with the board are inadequate.

For budget, if you do it right the first time, for 1000USD you will have a really good printer. And if you look closely and have patience you will be able to build it for quite a bit less, if you use second hand linear motion components. They sell quite a lot of them on eBay for next to nothing, and this stuff will not wear out to an extent that it impedes print quality.

Good luck!

Regards

Oscar

[PepCo_Parker]

Thanks so much everyone for the advice! It really does help to have such generous people in the community to share their extensive knowledge!

[tpalagyi]

Hi,

We are more than happy to help and guide you along this journey.

But please use our resources wisely. I have no problem taking my time to provide you information, ideas and solutions until you take this project serious and willing to finish it, so simply I don’t want to invest my resources into a dead project, please consider this. Check your budget availability and the time frame(2-3 month) you willing to finish this project.

Then get back to us whats your exact idea.

Regards,

Tamas

[PepCo_Parker]

Thanks and I for sure do wish and have the intent to finish a printer of larger scale. As well, one of the mentors from my highschools robotics team is also very interested, and coming from an engineering background he’s helping me out a lot. I’ll keep this post up to date on my progress!

[tpalagyi]

This sounds promising.

So first of get a CAD program and start to desgin the printer. ( Fusion 360 or Design Spark Mechanical is free and quite easy to use with lots of training videos). After the plans are ready you can start to investigate whats needs to ordered exactly.

For the design whats your plan? Print volume? Single or Dual head? Direct or with bowden extruder?

For the print head my recommendation is to use E3D V6 or Vulcano, they are reliable print heads.(be very-very careful if you order a chines copy of it they are usually poor quality)

[PepCo_Parker]

Thanks so much for the response. If you don’t mind, I’m going to reply to you through the main post as I’m viewing this post through my phone usually, and with the amount of people commenting back it’s at a point where with how each reply gets bumped over to the right, only about two words or so per line actually show up. (Basically if you’re following this conversation for the first time jump to where my next post is. )

[PepCo_Parker]

@tpalagyi Thanks so much for the response! I usually use Auto desk Inventor to design my models as it was what I was taught in school as well it’s what my mentor helping me with the project knows and uses at his place of employment. As far as your other questions, I was hoping to build about a half meter in every dimension for build volume. To be honest I wasn’t making a heated bed an immediate priority as preventing abs from curling is already quite a challenge. I was planning to do direct feed rather than a Bowden style extruder as some filaments such as rubber like ones are much better when using a direct feed.

[PepCo_Parker]

I was planning on doing a single extruder and then possibly upgrade it in the future when color mixing extruder heads are a bit more stable or even completely different, who knows right? But for now a single extruder should do just fine.